From fgabrieli at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 10:00:08 2009
From: fgabrieli at gmail.com (Fernando Gabrieli)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:00:08 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tidy code utils?
In-Reply-To: <20090924040527.GA10330@panix.com>
References: <4ABA95D5.9090703@gmx.com> <20090924040527.GA10330@panix.com>
Message-ID: <be1d525a0910010700n510fbd68hbeba07800046a8dc@mail.gmail.com>

It works very good, let's you create your own filters for the beautifier too

Fernando

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 1:05 AM, Daniel Convissor <
danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:

> Hi Ytzchack:
>
> > I remember having looked around for similar PHP projects, but nothing
> > seemed fully-baked as Perltidy.  Anyone have a recommendation?
>
> There's a PEAR package that does this:
> http://pear.php.net/package/PHP_Beautifier
>
> I haven't used the current release, so can't vouch for it.
>
> --Dan
>
> --
>  T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>            data intensive web and database programming
>                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
>  4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091001/5f6ce6ae/attachment.html>

From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 10:27:41 2009
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (Guilherme Blanco)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:27:41 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <68de37340909302001i1ceb1e3cx79d12b6c8e3cc8a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<68de37340909302001i1ceb1e3cx79d12b6c8e3cc8a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bcb7aa500910010727q4922346dp96d9388ff6a6ff85@mail.gmail.com>

The PDO will be only considered a true abstraction layer when it fixes
a couple of very painful issues it has.

One good example is retrieving more than a single BLOB column from an
Oracle database table.. it crashes PHP and most of the times, Apache.
Patch was already submitted to Chris, but it's far from complete and
until now there's no viable solution to be merged into PHP.

Lukas took lots of feedback from community and summarize them into a
possible PDO v2.
Here is the direct link to it: http://wiki.php.net/rfc/pdov1

Doctrine 1 uses a fork of PEAR MDB2, but Doctrine 2 is an entirely new
approach. We follow the JPAv2 specs, something that Hibernate and
EclipseLink also folllows.


Cheers,

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Eddie Drapkin <oorza2k5 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not to hijack the thread, but whatever came of PDO?
>>
>> I know there was that whole PDO-vs-MDB thang and then MDB2 and
>> whatever, and never bothered to keep up. Now I got no idea what
>> happened.
>>
>> -- Mitch, blushing ever so slightly
>>
>
> It's been moved into the PHP core, is still actively developed and is
> generally considered the future of database interaction in PHP.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
S?o Paulo - SP/Brazil


From paul at devonianfarm.com  Thu Oct  1 12:17:00 2009
From: paul at devonianfarm.com (Paul A Houle)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:17:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <bcb7aa500910010727q4922346dp96d9388ff6a6ff85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>	<68de37340909302001i1ceb1e3cx79d12b6c8e3cc8a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500910010727q4922346dp96d9388ff6a6ff85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC4D5FC.5070901@devonianfarm.com>

Guilherme Blanco wrote:
> The PDO will be only considered a true abstraction layer when it fixes
> a couple of very painful issues it has.
>
> One good example is retrieving more than a single BLOB column from an
> Oracle database table.. it crashes PHP and most of the times, Apache.
> Patch was already submitted to Chris, but it's far from complete and
> until now there's no viable solution to be merged into PHP.
>
>   
    Yeah,  I still use AdoDB for most projects (despite the fact that 
it's bloated) because I looked at the PDO API and it just didn't do 
things the way I want to do things.  It struck me as yet another API for 
application programmers written by a system programmer who'd never 
written an application of the type that's getting supported.


From david at davidmintz.org  Fri Oct  2 11:21:22 2009
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:21:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] manipulating an IMAP account
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>

If you were working on a Zend Framework application, and if you were writing
a simple script to log into an IMAP email account, fetch messages, iterate
through them finding ones matching particular criteria, do something with
the information in each of those messages, delete the message, and call it a
day... And if you found that Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap has a flawed
implementation of removeMessage(), because it sends an EXPUNGE command on
every invocation and thereby screws up the class'  ArrayAccess
implementation by disrupting the mapping between message numbers and
messages... then what would you do?

One option that occurs to me is to extend Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap and
override the parts that are giving me grief. But.... is that sound practice?

Another option: write it in another language entirely. I happen to speak
Perl. Anybody want to recommend a mature IMAP client module?

Another option: seize the opportunity to write it in some language I don't
know, being an ADD-afflicted sort who I loves running off on tangents...
Ruby? Python?

Any other suggestions?

-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091002/64bceadd/attachment.html>

From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 12:04:25 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:04:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] manipulating an IMAP account
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910020904g7f7f8b41i1825c67c40e73f57@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 11:21 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
> If you were working on a Zend Framework application, and if you were writing
> a simple script to log into an IMAP email account, fetch messages, iterate
> through them finding ones matching particular criteria, do something with
> the information in each of those messages, delete the message, and call it a
> day... And if you found that Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap has a flawed
> implementation of removeMessage(), because it sends an EXPUNGE command on
> every invocation and thereby screws up the class'? ArrayAccess
> implementation by disrupting the mapping between message numbers and
> messages... then what would you do?

So, let me make sure I understand this correctly.  Expunge, iirc,
deletes everything marked for deletion, and ZEND calls expunge
immediately after you mark something for deletion, which is not quite
right (but, makes imap behave more like pop).  It is unlikely the
class maintainers are going to change that.

How is the ArrayAccess broken?  The key=>message mapping should change
every time you call delete.

Regards,
John Campbell


From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 12:32:47 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:32:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] manipulating an IMAP account
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910020904g7f7f8b41i1825c67c40e73f57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
	<8f0676b40910020904g7f7f8b41i1825c67c40e73f57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910020932t522c733bt87e95d4a8b8604b2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:04 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 11:21 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
> > If you were working on a Zend Framework application, and if you were
> writing
> > a simple script to log into an IMAP email account, fetch messages,
> iterate
> > through them finding ones matching particular criteria, do something with
> > the information in each of those messages, delete the message, and call
> it a
> > day... And if you found that Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap has a flawed
> > implementation of removeMessage(), because it sends an EXPUNGE command on
> > every invocation and thereby screws up the class'  ArrayAccess
> > implementation by disrupting the mapping between message numbers and
> > messages... then what would you do?
>
> So, let me make sure I understand this correctly.  Expunge, iirc,
> deletes everything marked for deletion, and ZEND calls expunge
> immediately after you mark something for deletion, which is not quite
> right (but, makes imap behave more like pop).  It is unlikely the
> class maintainers are going to change that.
>
> How is the ArrayAccess broken?  The key=>message mapping should change
> every time you call delete.
>

I think that's exactly the problem.
http://framework.zend.com/issues/browse/ZF-5655 explains it better than I
can.

And, since my initial post, I went ahead and wrote my own extension stealing
all the suggestions provided in the above link.  It works.

Whoever wrote removeMessage() apparently did have some misgivings about
EXPUNGE. Note the TODO comment:

    public function removeMessage($id)
    {
        if (!$this->_protocol->store(array(Zend_Mail_Storage::FLAG_DELETED),
$id, null, '+')) {
            /**
             * @see Zend_Mail_Storage_Exception
             */
            require_once 'Zend/Mail/Storage/Exception.php';
            throw new Zend_Mail_Storage_Exception('cannot set deleted
flag');
        }
        // TODO: expunge here or at close? we can handle an error here
better and are more fail safe
        if (!$this->_protocol->expunge()) {
            /**
             * @see Zend_Mail_Storage_Exception
             */
            require_once 'Zend/Mail/Storage/Exception.php';
            throw new Zend_Mail_Storage_Exception('message marked as
deleted, but could not expunge');
        }
    }

I overwrote this method, simply moving the expunge part to  __destruct()


-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091002/71b1ccf7/attachment.html>

From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Oct  2 16:09:15 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:09:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002200915.GA16676@panix.com>

Hola Mitch:

> Not to hijack the thread, but whatever came of PDO?

It's suffering from lack of attention, like those monkeys given chicken 
wire replicas instead of actual mothers.

I'm biased toward PEAR projects, so would go with MDB2 as an abstraction 
library.  Solid community.  Well maintained and documented.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From lists at nopersonal.info  Fri Oct  2 16:12:06 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:12:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
Message-ID: <4AC65E96.7020601@nopersonal.info>

Hi Everyone,

I'm going to the CodeWorks conference this weekend and was just taking a
look at the final lineup of tracks that'll be offered.

http://cw.mtacon.com/schedule/city/new-york

Since it's not required that I stick to one track, I'm going to jump
around. For the most part I chose things that I want to know more about,
but in some cases (the ones preceded by asterisks below) I'm not at all
sure what to go for. I don't want to waste time attending something
that's going to be totally over my head, but OTOH I don't want to miss
something important just because I'm too inexperienced to realize it's
important, y'know?

I'd appreciate any advice you can offer on what might be most beneficial
for me at this stage. Also, if you think that the choices I DID make
might not be optimal, kindly let me know that also.

Thanks,
Bev

Tutorial Day
------------
9:00am - Security in PHP Projects
(Other tracks - Quality Assurance in PHP Projects, Advanced OOP and
Design Patterns)

1:00pm - Zend Framework
(Other tracks - PHP Code Review, Developing DB-Driven Websites)

Conference Day
--------------
9:00am - Five Things I Wish They'd Told Me
(Other tracks - Extreme Scale with Thin Server Architecture, The
CodeIgniter Framework)

*11:15am - The Hidden Gems in HTTP / Andrei's Regex Clinic
(Other track - Security-Centered Design)

12:15pm - Out With Regex, In With Tokens
(Other tracks - Alternative Databases, Interactive Media in ur RIAz with
Silverlight and PHP)

1:15pm - Time = Money
(Other tracks - PHP Oracle Web Applications: Best Practices and Caching
Strategies, Building RIAs with Flex and PHP, Part One)

*2:15pm - Webservice Design with AtomPub / Desktop RIAs with PHP & AIR
(Other track - Building RIAs with Flex and PHP, Part Two)

*3:30pm - Stupid Browser Tricks / PECL Exploration
(Other track - All the Little Pieces: Distributed Systems with PHP)

*4:30pm - Design Patterns in PHP / Fun with Maps and PHP / Debugging
with Xdebug - (I'm thinking maybe I should go with Design Patters, but
I'm not sure I'll be able to understand what they're talking about...?)






From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 17:55:27 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:55:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <20091002200915.GA16676@panix.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002200915.GA16676@panix.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340910021455t50b73c87u4724ca704f7a4453@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> Hola Mitch:
>
>> Not to hijack the thread, but whatever came of PDO?
>
> It's suffering from lack of attention, like those monkeys given chicken
> wire replicas instead of actual mothers.
>
> I'm biased toward PEAR projects, so would go with MDB2 as an abstraction
> library. ?Solid community. ?Well maintained and documented.
>
> --Dan
>
> --
> ?T H E ? A N A L Y S I S ? A N D ? S O L U T I O N S ? C O M P A N Y
> ? ? ? ? ? ?data intensive web and database programming
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
> ?4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232 ?v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>

And best of all, it's a performance nightmare!  I've known people to
have a 40% PHP speed improvement just by swapping MDB2 out for PDO.


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sat Oct  3 14:42:23 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 14:42:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Good DB abstraction layer
In-Reply-To: <68de37340910021455t50b73c87u4724ca704f7a4453@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2aaca40909292106h74a52358tc34fe1344a353bc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0909301151260.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
	<5e2aaca40909301506l57483d07p8d316fe26eae96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcb7aa500909301548o503f351atc4c19d4d31bdee71@mail.gmail.com>
	<330532b60909301827q67cc8e08pd871f454f91d79e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002200915.GA16676@panix.com>
	<68de37340910021455t50b73c87u4724ca704f7a4453@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091003184223.GA16995@panix.com>

Hey Eddie:

> And best of all, it's a performance nightmare!  I've known people to
> have a 40% PHP speed improvement just by swapping MDB2 out for PDO.

But MDB2 actually works.  PDO doesn't work completely for several DBMSes.  
Of course, it all depends what your needs are.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From nate at cakephp.org  Sat Oct  3 18:35:43 2009
From: nate at cakephp.org (Nate Abele)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 18:35:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1254585601.9219.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1254585601.9219.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>

On Oct 3, 2009, at 12:00 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:

> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:12:06 -0400
> From: "lists at nopersonal.info" <lists at nopersonal.info>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm going to the CodeWorks conference this weekend and was just  
> taking a
> look at the final lineup of tracks that'll be offered.

Hi Bev,

I spoke in the first 3 cities of the tour, so I can tell you from  
experience that all the talks are great. :-)

I'm assuming you're coming from a beginner's perspective, so here are  
my suggestions:

- Security in PHP Projects
-  Developing DB-Driven Websites
- Five Things I Wish They'd Told Me (this is probably the best  
beginner / intro talk on the tour)
- If you feel like you're up to Andrei's Regex Clinic, do that,  
otherwise stick to Security-Centered Design
- Out With Regex, In With Tokens is a good talk if you're interested  
in development tooling, otherwise check out Alternative Databases
- Time = Money
- Webservice Design with AtomPub
- Stupid Browser Tricks is a look at automated client-side debugging,  
and PECL exploration is a tour through some of the available  
extensions to PHP.  Both are great talks, just depends on where your  
interest is.
- Design Patterns in PHP is a beginners' talk as well (and Cal is  
giving it, so it'll definitely be very approachable). Highly  
recommended for beginners.

Anyway, hope that helps. Be sure to let us know how it goes.


- Nate Abele
   Lead Developer, CakePHP

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091003/e86cf023/attachment.html>

From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 19:11:07 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 19:11:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
In-Reply-To: <BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1254585601.9219.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <330532b60910031611k3206401fgb7b205f445a9c530@mail.gmail.com>

I'm partial to the Extreme Scale with Thin Server Architecture session
for some reason.

-- Mitch

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Nate Abele <nate at cakephp.org> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 2009, at 12:00 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:
>
> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:12:06 -0400
> From: "lists at nopersonal.info" <lists at nopersonal.info>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm going to the CodeWorks conference this weekend and was just taking a
> look at the final lineup of tracks that'll be offered.
>
> Hi Bev,
> I spoke in the first 3 cities of the tour, so I can tell you from experience
> that all the talks are great. :-)
> I'm assuming you're coming from a beginner's perspective, so here are my
> suggestions:
> -?Security in PHP Projects
> - ?Developing DB-Driven Websites
> -?Five Things I Wish They'd Told Me (this is probably the best beginner /
> intro talk on the tour)
> - If you feel like you're up to?Andrei's Regex Clinic, do that, otherwise
> stick to?Security-Centered Design
> -?Out With Regex, In With Tokens is a good talk if you're interested in
> development tooling, otherwise check out?Alternative Databases
> -?Time = Money
> -?Webservice Design with AtomPub
> - Stupid Browser Tricks is a look at automated client-side debugging, and
> PECL exploration is a tour through some of the available extensions to PHP.
> ?Both are great talks, just depends on where your interest is.
> - Design Patterns in PHP is a beginners' talk as well (and Cal is giving it,
> so it'll definitely be very approachable). Highly recommended for beginners.
> Anyway, hope that helps. Be sure to let us know how it goes.
>
> - Nate Abele
> ??Lead Developer, CakePHP
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 07:00:27 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 07:00:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: CPANEL's Boxtrapper - open source alternatives?
Message-ID: <85AC2ABA-6F0F-47F4-B7AC-392C0FB8B93D@gmail.com>

For those that aren't familiar, Boxtrapper (part of CPANEL) helps  
fight spam, by sending an auto-reply and release of e-mail that's not  
white listed. I've found that the Boxtrapper/Spamassassin combination  
works well. I'm looking for an Open Source alternative to Boxtrapper,  
but I've not found anything. Perhaps there is something else out there  
I'm not aware of? Or has anyone considered starting an Open Source  
project to do this sort of function? Thanks!

David Roth



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Sun Oct  4 11:59:09 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:59:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] manipulating an IMAP account
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091004155909.GA23493@panix.com>

Hey David:

> One option that occurs to me is to extend Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap and
> override the parts that are giving me grief. But.... is that sound practice?

It's excellent practice.  This way you get the benefits of the original 
class and the benefits of of the fix, all without having to modify the 
original class file.

Going one step further is to open a bug report (which I see someone has).

The next level of karma is obtained by checking out the project in 
SVN/CVS/whatever, fixing the problem and submitting the output of 
"<cvs/svn/whatever> diff" onto the bug report.

And if you want to reach nirvana, you'll modify and enhance the related 
unit tests and submit those along with the bug report.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From matt at atopia.net  Sun Oct  4 21:51:31 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:51:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Scripts to manage subversion and db schema
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910042149450.11974@pluto.atopia.net>

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone can recommend unix shell scripts to do the 
following:

- Merge changes from trunk -> stable -> live repositories.  svn merge 
works well for this but it doesn't really track well.  I've seen people 
use certain scripts to do this and I'm wondering if anyone can recommend 
any.

- Manage db schema inside SVN.  Something like this: 
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/database/DatabaseSchemaVersioning.aspx 
except for Unix/MySQL.

Thanks!

-Matt


From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 23:34:59 2009
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:34:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Scripts to manage subversion and db schema
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910042149450.11974@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910042149450.11974@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <5458db3c0910042034i3a7fe27arb59377f8e62a344e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:

>
> - Merge changes from trunk -> stable -> live repositories.  svn merge works
> well for this but it doesn't really track well.
>

Define "doesn't really track well" If you don't like how it looks in the
history, what do you expect scripts to accomplish? Comments that make it
easier to track forks and merges?


> - Manage db schema inside SVN.  Something like this:
> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/database/DatabaseSchemaVersioning.aspxexcept for Unix/MySQL.
>

I'm not sure SCM is the best tool for this job. I think what you need is a
tool that can generate the DDL scripts to make one databases schema match
anothers ( like RedGate SQL compare for MS SQL server), and a backup of your
production staging and test database at each branch or version of your app.
It won't eliminate the need for manual DML scripts (nothing does), but it
will give you the best possible chance of actually being able to migrate a
database up or down to an arbitrary version of the app. In actuality, you
only need a permanent copy of each version of the dev database, which should
be small, to make this work
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091004/91ff6369/attachment.html>

From nycfug_org at dynamicink.com  Mon Oct  5 03:02:50 2009
From: nycfug_org at dynamicink.com (LAMP-rox)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 03:02:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Win a free ticket to Percona's MySQL InnoDB/XtraDB
	Training in NYC ($450.00 value!)
Message-ID: <00aa01ca4589$df941360$c80aa8c0@e6300>

Win a free ticket to Percona's InnoDB/XtraDB Training ($450.00 value!)

Taught by Morgan Tocker, world-renowned MySQL Expert at Percona, Inc.

October 30, 2009 from 9:30 AM until 5pm in the NYC Financial District (90 Broad Street, New York, NY 10004)

Enter here: http://www.Vork.us/contest

Contest ends Oct. 12, 2009 at 11:59pm EST.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091005/34e360f7/attachment.html>

From lists at nopersonal.info  Mon Oct  5 07:56:02 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:56:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910031611k3206401fgb7b205f445a9c530@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1254585601.9219.talk@lists.nyphp.org>	<BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>
	<330532b60910031611k3206401fgb7b205f445a9c530@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC9DED2.5090802@nopersonal.info>

Mitch Pirtle wrote:
> I'm partial to the Extreme Scale with Thin Server Architecture session
> for some reason.
> 
> -- Mitch

Hmm, I'll have to stick my head into that session so I can put a face to
your name. :)

Bev



From lists at nopersonal.info  Mon Oct  5 08:03:03 2009
From: lists at nopersonal.info (lists at nopersonal.info)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 08:03:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Advice on CodeWorks Conference Tracks
In-Reply-To: <BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1254585601.9219.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<BD7A5523-FA49-413F-98BD-DFF010D9B82E@cakephp.org>
Message-ID: <4AC9E077.4040000@nopersonal.info>

Nate Abele wrote:
> Hi Bev,
> 
> I spoke in the first 3 cities of the tour, so I can tell you from
> experience that all the talks are great. :-)
> 
> I'm assuming you're coming from a beginner's perspective, so here are my
> suggestions:
> 
> - Security in PHP Projects
> -  Developing DB-Driven Websites
> - Five Things I Wish They'd Told Me (this is probably the best beginner
> / intro talk on the tour)
> - If you feel like you're up to Andrei's Regex Clinic, do that,
> otherwise stick to Security-Centered Design
> - Out With Regex, In With Tokens is a good talk if you're interested in
> development tooling, otherwise check out Alternative Databases
> - Time = Money
> - Webservice Design with AtomPub
> - Stupid Browser Tricks is a look at automated client-side debugging,
> and PECL exploration is a tour through some of the available extensions
> to PHP.  Both are great talks, just depends on where your interest is.
> - Design Patterns in PHP is a beginners' talk as well (and Cal is giving
> it, so it'll definitely be very approachable). Highly recommended for
> beginners.
> 
> Anyway, hope that helps. Be sure to let us know how it goes.

Hi Nate,

Yep, I'm still a beginner. Thanks for the suggestions--they are indeed
helpful.

Yesterday I ended up going to Security in PHP Projects, then I tried the
Zend Framework tutorial, which quickly went over my head. I ended up
switching over to the Code Review talk after the break (I didn't have
time to check the list Saturday night, so I didn't see you
recommendation). A good deal of that was over my head also, but I
understood the points they were making and the speakers were great. They
were also very patient in addressing my beginner questions/frustrations.

I'll definitely report back on how it goes.

Bev




From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 14:48:10 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:48:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] manipulating an IMAP account
In-Reply-To: <20091004155909.GA23493@panix.com>
References: <721f1cc50910020821u5017a63dtc31e57ab42030ad1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091004155909.GA23493@panix.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910051148u6dbf9dabqe16d063b8784f60@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Daniel Convissor <
danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:

> Hey David:
>
> > One option that occurs to me is to extend Zend_Mail_Storage_Imap and
> > override the parts that are giving me grief. But.... is that sound
> practice?
>
> It's excellent practice.  This way you get the benefits of the original
> class and the benefits of of the fix, all without having to modify the
> original class file.
>


Well, I did it and it works, or so it seems. My only hesitation was because
I generally think of extension as a means of enhancing or specializing the
parent class rather than correcting its flaws.



>
> Going one step further is to open a bug report (which I see someone has).
>
> The next level of karma is obtained by checking out the project in
> SVN/CVS/whatever, fixing the problem and submitting the output of
> "<cvs/svn/whatever> diff" onto the bug report.
>
>
There's not a shred of originality in my solution, someone else wrote the
code (the guy who filed the issue) and I merely put some pieces together.
But... with attribution to the source, why not.



> And if you want to reach nirvana, you'll modify and enhance the related
> unit tests and submit those along with the bug report.
>

And learn something about unit testing an IMAP client in the process --
nice. Thanks.




-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091005/3ef199be/attachment.html>

From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct  6 00:56:41 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 00:56:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0909191238230.28544@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>
	<1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909191238230.28544@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910060054220.71670@pluto.atopia.net>

And how about one more thing...

What would you call a table that joins two other tables on a many to many:

say I have an account table, and a user table:


account
 	- ID

user
 	- ID



Finally, I have a third table:

un-named
 	- account_id
 	- user_id
 	- column X
 	- column Y


What would you call that many:many table?

Surely, not account_user, and not user_account, as that's deceiving. 
Would you do something like:

x_account_user

To show it's an intersection (many:many) of the two?

To clarify, I have a table called "post", and a table called "user", and I 
need a table that deals with "permissions" that intersects the two.  I 
don't want to call it "permission", because that's a bit vague.  I could 
call it:

x_post_user_permission

or just:

post_user_permission

Can't quite decide.

Thoughts?


From ajai at bitblit.net  Tue Oct  6 01:19:13 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 01:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910060054220.71670@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910060117530.12948-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> And how about one more thing...
> 
> What would you call a table that joins two other tables on a many to many:
> 
> say I have an account table, and a user table:
> 
> 
> account
>  	- ID
> 
> user
>  	- ID
> 
> Finally, I have a third table:
> 
> un-named
>  	- account_id
>  	- user_id
>  	- column X
>  	- column Y
> 
> 
> What would you call that many:many table?
> 
> Surely, not account_user, and not user_account

Why not AccountUser?  

Some PHP frameworks do indeed follow that convention.


-- 
Aj.



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct  6 07:06:59 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:06:59 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1254827219.18893@coral.he.net>

> > 
> > 
> > What would you call that many:many table?
> > 
> > Surely, not account_user, and not user_account
> 
> Why not AccountUser?  
> 
> Some PHP frameworks do indeed follow that convention.
> 
> 



AccountUser or account_user would definitely be the most commonly used 
conventions, but if you feel that you want to make it more obvious that 
the relationships are many-to-many, you can use AccountsUsers or some 
version of a pluralized name...the equally important thing in my view 
is to make sure you're keeping your DB schema up to date including 
table descriptions in sufficient detail.  

- Kristina




From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Oct  6 07:10:00 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:10:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910060054220.71670@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1252897065.23932@coral.he.net>	<1998818657-1252897190-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106618346-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0909191238230.28544@pluto.atopia.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910060054220.71670@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4ACB2588.1010908@gmx.net>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> And how about one more thing...
> 
> What would you call a table that joins two other tables on a many to many:
> 
[...]
> 
> What would you call that many:many table?
> 
> Surely, not account_user, and not user_account, as that's deceiving. 
> Would you do something like:
> 
> x_account_user
> 
[...]

> Thoughts?

So you have a need to craft a new table that consists of columns found in 
other tables? I recommend using a view instead rather than to duplicate the 
data and needlessly bloat the database. Views behave like tables (except that 
you cannot insert or update data through them), so you can run queries against 
them and as far as I know create new views from existing views and tables. I 
recently started playing around with views at my job and was positively 
impressed about how easy they are to create and how much work they save. There 
really is no need to store the same piece of data more than once in a 
database. Works well for tables that are commonly joined or pieces of data 
that need to be calculated, filtered, sorted, or whatever SQL allows you to do.
In regards to naming, looking at other databases the views are prefixed with 
"v_" or some use "vw_". So in your case the name could be "v_account_user".

Might that work for you?

David



From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 11:41:52 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:41:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1254827219.18893@coral.he.net>
References: <1254827219.18893@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240803c6f10b758760@[192.168.1.102]>

At 4:06 AM -0700 10/6/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>  > >
>>  >
>>  > What would you call that many:many table?
>>  >
>>  > Surely, not account_user, and not user_account
>>
>>  Why not AccountUser? 
>>
>  > Some PHP frameworks do indeed follow that convention.
>
>AccountUser or account_user would definitely be the most commonly used
>conventions, but if you feel that you want to make it more obvious that
>the relationships are many-to-many, you can use AccountsUsers or some
>version of a pluralized name...the equally important thing in my view
>is to make sure you're keeping your DB schema up to date including
>table descriptions in sufficient detail. 
>
>- Kristina

I second the splendid advice given by Kristina. I only add that you 
develop a convention that works for you and that you are consistent 
with it.

As an alternative to using parts of other table names to construct a 
new table name, this might help: Typically when one is creating a 
many:many record it's to record an instance of a relationship between 
two different items -- and -- with considered thought you usually can 
create a descriptive name for that relationship. For example, if you 
are connecting students to classes, then a table name like 
"registrations" makes sense. If you are connecting an audience to 
plays, then a table name like "tickets" makes sense.

Look for a reason why a many:many record should exist, then try to 
find a descriptive name for it.

If you can't, then closely look at the tables you have created for 
your items and ask yourself if the tables are accurate descriptions 
of their contents?

In your case, you have "users" and "accounts". I can guess that users 
are people, but I'm not sure what "accounts" are.  But, for example, 
if the accounts were different types of insurances, then I might 
create a many:many table called "policies" where I would connect 
users to accounts. If that were the case, I might change the 
"accounts" table name to be more specific like "insurance_types". Do 
you see how this is done?

I find the best way to solve this is to think about it before going 
to sleep. Then after I wake, I usually have a solution.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct  6 11:34:22 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:34:22 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1949093597-1254844430-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1793298120-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hi David,

No, a view isn't what I'm looking for because I'm also adding 2 columns of data.  Its a normal, many:many relationship data table. Just trying to figure out what to call it.  

Matt 



From ajai at bitblit.net  Tue Oct  6 12:26:46 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <4ACB2588.1010908@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910061225440.12948-100000@bitblit.net>

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, David Krings wrote:

> There 
> really is no need to store the same piece of data more than once in a 
> database.

But a table descrbing a manay-to-many could just contain foreign keys.



-- 
Aj.



From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 12:34:23 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:34:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1949093597-1254844430-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1793298120
	-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1949093597-1254844430-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1793298120
	-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <p06240807c6f120215fab@[192.168.1.102]>

At 3:34 PM +0000 10/6/09, matt at atopia.net wrote:
>Hi David,
>
>No, a view isn't what I'm looking for because I'm also adding 2 
>columns of data.  Its a normal, many:many relationship data table. 
>Just trying to figure out what to call it. 
>
>Matt

This reminds me of a story.

Ponce de Leon upon finding an ocean his lieutenant asked "Sir, what 
are you going to name this magnificent body of water after our long 
perilous journey?"

Ponce de Leon replied "I think I'll name it the 'Magnificent body of 
water after our long perilous journey' ".

The lieutenant said "But Sir, you should be more specific"

Ponce de Leon answered "Okay -- the Pacific!"

Sometimes the solution is the name.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct  6 12:38:26 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:38:26 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net>



> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, David Krings wrote:
> 
> > There 
> > really is no need to store the same piece of data more than once in 
a 
> > database.
> 
> But a table descrbing a manay-to-many could just contain foreign keys.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aj.
> 
> 

Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a primary 
key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.

Creating a view is an option, but I have concerns about how it would 
scale in a situation where a lot of accounts were being created.



Kristina

Kristina


From dcech at phpwerx.net  Tue Oct  6 12:43:25 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:43:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a primary 
> key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.

Why do you need a separate primary key?  The relationship is defined by
user id and account id.

CREATE TABLE some_rel (
  user_id int(11) not null,
  account_id int(11) not null,
  some_attribute varchar(255),
  PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id)
);

I added the attribute column to illustrate that you can still identify
the row like:

SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y

HTH,

Dan


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct  6 12:49:06 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:49:06 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1254847746.29437@coral.he.net>



> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a 
primary 
> > key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.
> 
> Why do you need a separate primary key?  The relationship is defined 
by
> user id and account id.
> 
> CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>   user_id int(11) not null,
>   account_id int(11) not null,
>   some_attribute varchar(255),
>   PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id)
> );
> 
> I added the attribute column to illustrate that you can still identify
> the row like:
> 
> SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y
> 
> HTH,
> 
> Dan
> 
Dan,

As soon as I wrote this post I knew someone was going to bring that up 
and you're entirely right!


Kristina


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct  6 13:31:01 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910061225440.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910061225440.12948-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061330470.4152@pluto.atopia.net>

> But a table descrbing a manay-to-many could just contain foreign keys.

Correct.  Many to many tables are valid.  That shouldn't really be a 
debate here.


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct  6 13:32:48 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:32:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1254847746.29437@coral.he.net>
References: <1254847746.29437@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061332170.4152@pluto.atopia.net>

>> SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y

Yes, but this can return multiple rows.  What if you only want to return 
one row?  You don't necessarilly *need* a new auto_increment, and in fact, 
it probably isn't necessary, but you should make sure there's an inde on 
(user_id,account_id) :)


-M


From dcech at phpwerx.net  Tue Oct  6 13:34:22 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:34:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061332170.4152@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1254847746.29437@coral.he.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061332170.4152@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4ACB7F9E.10506@phpwerx.net>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
>>> SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y
> 
> Yes, but this can return multiple rows.  What if you only want to return
> one row?  You don't necessarilly *need* a new auto_increment, and in
> fact, it probably isn't necessary, but you should make sure there's an
> inde on (user_id,account_id) :)

That's what the primary key is for ;)

Dan


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct  6 13:46:31 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:46:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <4ACB7F9E.10506@phpwerx.net>
References: <1254847746.29437@coral.he.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061332170.4152@pluto.atopia.net>
	<4ACB7F9E.10506@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061346200.4792@pluto.atopia.net>

> That's what the primary key is for ;)

Well, yeah :) I guess that would be the primary key :)

<--- tired


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 13:49:27 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:49:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080bc6f13385eb44@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:38 AM -0700 10/6/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>  > On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, David Krings wrote:
>>
>>  > There
>>  > really is no need to store the same piece of data more than once in
>a
>>  > database.
>>
>>  But a table descrbing a manay-to-many could just contain foreign keys.
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Aj.
>>
>>
>
>Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a primary
>key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.
>
>Creating a view is an option, but I have concerns about how it would
>scale in a situation where a lot of accounts were being created.
>
>
>
>Kristina
>
>Kristina

Oh no -- there's two of you!  :-)

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 13:55:52 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:55:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net> <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@[192.168.1.102]>

At 12:43 PM -0400 10/6/09, Dan Cech wrote:
>Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>  Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a primary
>>  key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.
>
>Why do you need a separate primary key?  The relationship is defined by
>user id and account id.
>
>CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>   user_id int(11) not null,
>   account_id int(11) not null,
>   some_attribute varchar(255),
>   PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id)
>);
>
>I added the attribute column to illustrate that you can still identify
>the row like:
>
>SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y
>
>HTH,
>
>Dan

Dan:

That's a good point, but I still like having a "separate from data" 
auto_increment index for all records. Besides adding one field to a 
record, can you see any harm in that?

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From dcech at phpwerx.net  Tue Oct  6 14:06:46 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:06:46 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net> <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <4ACB8736.3070108@phpwerx.net>

tedd wrote:
> At 12:43 PM -0400 10/6/09, Dan Cech wrote:
>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>  Exactly, the table would contain probably nothing more than a primary
>>>  key autonumber field, the user id and account id in each row.
>>
>> Why do you need a separate primary key?  The relationship is defined by
>> user id and account id.
>>
>> CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>>   user_id int(11) not null,
>>   account_id int(11) not null,
>>   some_attribute varchar(255),
>>   PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id)
>> );
>>
>> I added the attribute column to illustrate that you can still identify
>> the row like:
>>
>> SELECT some_attribute FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X AND account_id=Y
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>> Dan
> 
> Dan:
> 
> That's a good point, but I still like having a "separate from data"
> auto_increment index for all records. Besides adding one field to a
> record, can you see any harm in that?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd

You also end up maintaining separate indexes to support the lookups you
actually want to do:

Say you want to be able to do lookups in both directions, like:

SELECT account_id FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X

and

SELECT user_id FROM some_rel WHERE account_id=Y

The most efficient system for doing this is:

CREATE TABLE some_rel (
  user_id int(11) not null,
  account_id int(11) not null,
  PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id),
  KEY account_id (account_id)
);

The primary key is used for lookups by user_id, and the second key for
lookups via account_id.

If you add an auto_increment column, you then have to do:

CREATE TABLE some_rel (
  some_rel_id int(11) not null auto_increment,
  user_id int(11) not null,
  account_id int(11) not null,
  PRIMARY KEY (some_rel_id),
  UNIQUE KEY user_id (user_id,account_id),
  KEY account_id (account_id)
);

You need a unique index on user_id,account_id to enforce the
relationship rule.

The account_id lookup cannot leverage the primary key, so you either
have to add the user_id field to that index or accept that it's going to
have to read the primary key and look up the user_ids from the table itself.

Dan


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 14:27:25 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:27:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <4ACB8736.3070108@phpwerx.net>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net> <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@[192.168.1.102]> <4ACB8736.3070108@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <p06240858c6f1383d066e@[192.168.1.102]>

At 2:06 PM -0400 10/6/09, Dan Cech wrote:
>tedd wrote:
>  > Dan:
>>
>>  That's a good point, but I still like having a "separate from data"
>>  auto_increment index for all records. Besides adding one field to a
>>  record, can you see any harm in that?
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>
>>  tedd
>
>You also end up maintaining separate indexes to support the lookups you
>actually want to do:
>
>Say you want to be able to do lookups in both directions, like:
>
>SELECT account_id FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X
>
>and
>
>SELECT user_id FROM some_rel WHERE account_id=Y
>
>The most efficient system for doing this is:
>
>CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>   user_id int(11) not null,
>   account_id int(11) not null,
>   PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id),
>   KEY account_id (account_id)
>);
>
>The primary key is used for lookups by user_id, and the second key for
>lookups via account_id.
>
>If you add an auto_increment column, you then have to do:
>
>CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>   some_rel_id int(11) not null auto_increment,
>   user_id int(11) not null,
>   account_id int(11) not null,
>   PRIMARY KEY (some_rel_id),
>   UNIQUE KEY user_id (user_id,account_id),
>   KEY account_id (account_id)
>);
>
>You need a unique index on user_id,account_id to enforce the
>relationship rule.
>
>The account_id lookup cannot leverage the primary key, so you either
>have to add the user_id field to that index or accept that it's going to
>have to read the primary key and look up the user_ids from the table itself.
>
>Dan

Dan:

Interesting consideration.

As I said, I typically have a "separate from data" id that pertains 
to the individual record. A many:many record may not be unique, but 
may include a date field or other such distinguishing character. As 
such, I usually like getting/setting such records by their ids rather 
than using multiple fields. Of course, you get the id by using 
multiple fields, but then dealing with the record itself, you have a 
unique number and I find that simpler.

Now does that led to a faster database lookup? Probably not, but that 
may be the price I pay for keeping things simple for me.

Do you see any way for me to be happy and my db queries fast?

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct  6 16:03:05 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:03:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <1254854818.22800@coral.he.net>
References: <1254854818.22800@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240803c6f1529f353b@[192.168.0.100]>

>In cases where the userid - accountid pairs are always unique, the
>additional PK is redundant (although 99% of the time it's there anyway
>due to lazy design).  A "lookup" table whose sole purpose is to create
>relationships between the two other tables should not have duplicate
>userid-accountid pairs.
>
>In another case, let's say you have a table containing logon
>information which stores userid and accountid along with other data in
>each row.  In this case you'd have multiple instances of the same
>userid-accountid pairs, and you'd need a separate PK to uniquely
>reference specific instances of that pair in the table.
>
>Kristina


I think I said I agreed with that.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct  6 16:10:38 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:10:38 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1254859838.10464@coral.he.net>



> >In cases where the userid - accountid pairs are always unique, the
> >additional PK is redundant (although 99% of the time it's there 
anyway
> >due to lazy design).  A "lookup" table whose sole purpose is to 
create
> >relationships between the two other tables should not have duplicate
> >userid-accountid pairs.
> >
> >In another case, let's say you have a table containing logon
> >information which stores userid and accountid along with other data 
in
> >each row.  In this case you'd have multiple instances of the same
> >userid-accountid pairs, and you'd need a separate PK to uniquely
> >reference specific instances of that pair in the table.
> >
> >Kristina
> 
> 
> I think I said I agreed with that.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 
> 

Tedd,

Absolutely, you did, but what I was trying to say (poorly I guess) was 
that a lot of what Dan put out there (which was fantastic stuff) 
related (at least insofar as my understanding of it) only to the first 
case where there aren't any duplicate userid-accountid pairs.

Kristina


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Oct  7 02:56:59 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:56:59 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
Message-ID: <1254898619.22183@coral.he.net>

> >
> >Kristina
> >
> >Kristina
> 
> Oh no -- there's two of you!  :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 
> 

Hi Tedd,

Nope, there's only one of me fortunately!  

BTW I apologize as I was not trying to be presumptuous in my earlier 
posts.  Sometimes I cogitate best by explaining stuff out loud ... 

I'm just thinking now about the examples Dan gave and how that could 
have prevented stuff like

SELECT video.id, video.title as vidtitle, video.fileName AS filename, 
video.filePath AS filepath,video.description, videocategories.name, 
section.name, videocategories.id AS categoryID
FROM video, videocategories, section, videosbysection
WHERE video.category_id = videocategories.id
AND video.id = videosbysection.video_id
AND section.id = videosbysection.section_id
AND section.name = '".$sectionname."' AND video.active=1
ORDER BY videocategories.order, videocategories.id, video.order, 
video.title

which is something I had to do on a recent project because of the poor 
design of the database [or perhaps lack of design, as they took a 
database for a CMS that handled "categories" and "sections" and just 
dumped things into it wholesale, and my instructions were not to modify 
the structure...] -- at least I'm pretty sure something here could have 
been improved upon.

Kristina






From matt at atopia.net  Wed Oct  7 11:42:04 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
In-Reply-To: <1254923865.3251.5.camel@max-laptop>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061827140.15798@pluto.atopia.net>
	<1254923865.3251.5.camel@max-laptop>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910071140170.56276@pluto.atopia.net>

> sounds like you're checking in a file with local modifications, what
> does svn stat on that file say?..

I'm not though!  I've done this numerous times before with no issues. 
Here's a full snap:

oak$ ls
branches        tags            trunk
oak$ ls branches
oak$ svn stat
oak$ du -sh trunk
1.6M    trunk
oak$ svn copy trunk branches/tags
A         branches/testing
oak$ svn stat
A  +    branches/testing
M  +    branches/testing/htdocs/static/js/global.js
oak$


?




From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 14:23:23 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:23:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <p06240858c6f1383d066e@192.168.1.102>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net> <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@192.168.1.102> <4ACB8736.3070108@phpwerx.net>
	<p06240858c6f1383d066e@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <330532b60910071123yd90fdc1we74e5b5ffc49d99a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:27 PM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
> At 2:06 PM -0400 10/6/09, Dan Cech wrote:
>>
>> tedd wrote:
>> ?> Dan:
>>>
>>> ?That's a good point, but I still like having a "separate from data"
>>> ?auto_increment index for all records. Besides adding one field to a
>>> ?record, can you see any harm in that?
>>>
>>> ?Cheers,
>>>
>>> ?tedd
>>
>> You also end up maintaining separate indexes to support the lookups you
>> actually want to do:
>>
>> Say you want to be able to do lookups in both directions, like:
>>
>> SELECT account_id FROM some_rel WHERE user_id=X
>>
>> and
>>
>> SELECT user_id FROM some_rel WHERE account_id=Y
>>
>> The most efficient system for doing this is:
>>
>> CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>> ?user_id int(11) not null,
>> ?account_id int(11) not null,
>> ?PRIMARY KEY (user_id,account_id),
>> ?KEY account_id (account_id)
>> );
>>
>> The primary key is used for lookups by user_id, and the second key for
>> lookups via account_id.
>>
>> If you add an auto_increment column, you then have to do:
>>
>> CREATE TABLE some_rel (
>> ?some_rel_id int(11) not null auto_increment,
>> ?user_id int(11) not null,
>> ?account_id int(11) not null,
>> ?PRIMARY KEY (some_rel_id),
>> ?UNIQUE KEY user_id (user_id,account_id),
>> ?KEY account_id (account_id)
>> );
>>
>> You need a unique index on user_id,account_id to enforce the
>> relationship rule.
>>
>> The account_id lookup cannot leverage the primary key, so you either
>> have to add the user_id field to that index or accept that it's going to
>> have to read the primary key and look up the user_ids from the table
>> itself.
>>
>> Dan
>
> Dan:
>
> Interesting consideration.
>
> As I said, I typically have a "separate from data" id that pertains to the
> individual record. A many:many record may not be unique, but may include a
> date field or other such distinguishing character. As such, I usually like
> getting/setting such records by their ids rather than using multiple fields.
> Of course, you get the id by using multiple fields, but then dealing with
> the record itself, you have a unique number and I find that simpler.
>
> Now does that led to a faster database lookup? Probably not, but that may be
> the price I pay for keeping things simple for me.
>
> Do you see any way for me to be happy and my db queries fast?
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com ?http://ancientstones.com ?http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>

I honestly wonder how significant the hit is between having an auto
increment primary key versus a composite primary key over two
integers...

I was always taught the primary key is something unique to each row,
and specific to that row (like a unique name, SSN, product_id, etc.).
The idea of auto increment came about when everyone was freaking out
about linux only supporting files up to 2GBs and mysql table data
going into one file. This was also a big deal back when RAM cost more
than cocaine.

Nowadays I am not so sure this approach is practical, and believe it
is simply ingrained as we were all taught to think this way.

OTOH most object/document databases generate an internal identifier
for scale, sharding and whatnot (like MongoDB). So there are valid
reasons for going the auto increment route, but I do believe too many
people just automatically design every table to rely upon it.

-- Mitch


From matt at atopia.net  Wed Oct  7 14:50:40 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
In-Reply-To: <20091007174142.GE9746@zaph.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061827140.15798@pluto.atopia.net>
	<20091007174142.GE9746@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910071442160.63089@pluto.atopia.net>

> Did you do an "svn up" before doing all this?

Tried svn up, did a brand new checkout, etc. etc.

> What is the output of "svn ls -R trunk"?

Hopefully this is enough info:

oak$ svn ls -R trunk | wc
      115     115    3790
oak$ svn ls -R trunk | grep global.js
htdocs/static/js/global.js

> What is the output of "svn st -u trunk"?

oak$ svn st -u trunk
Status against revision:    123
oak$


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 15:46:01 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:46:01 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database, table, and column naming schemes
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910071123yd90fdc1we74e5b5ffc49d99a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1254847106.27108@coral.he.net> <4ACB73AD.4080907@phpwerx.net>
	<p0624080cc6f1345d1db8@192.168.1.102> <4ACB8736.3070108@phpwerx.net>
	<p06240858c6f1383d066e@192.168.1.102>
	<330532b60910071123yd90fdc1we74e5b5ffc49d99a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910071246m592181cfs5d1fd13f85983cfb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> OTOH most object/document databases generate an internal identifier
> for scale, sharding and whatnot (like MongoDB). So there are valid
> reasons for going the auto increment route, but I do believe too many
> people just automatically design every table to rely upon it.

These databases can't do arbitrary joins, and so would never have a
many-to-many connector table.  In performant object stores, you would
store all the student ids with the class, and also store the class ids
with the student object.  To have a many-to-many relationship, you
must duplicate the data.

Adding auto_increments to connector tables is always bad form, IMO.
The auto increment can lead to duplication, provides no additional
information, breaks certain types of queries, bloats your sql code,
and slows down query performance.  I know of no good reason to add the
extraneous information to the table.

-John Campbell


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct  8 04:16:30 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 04:16:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
In-Reply-To: <20091008051715.GJ9746@zaph.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910061827140.15798@pluto.atopia.net>
	<20091008051715.GJ9746@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910080416030.95450@pluto.atopia.net>

> Apart from printing out "sending ...global.js" which I admit is weird,
> does the cp and commit do the right thing? i.e. are the branches created
> and all the files you expect there?

Yes.

I ended up fixing this by re-creating the repository.  And it's no longer 
occuring.  My guess is something in one of the .svn directories got messed 
up.


From mangesh at ascellent.co.in  Thu Oct  8 09:32:29 2009
From: mangesh at ascellent.co.in (Mangesh Sathe)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:02:29 +0530
Subject: [nycphp-talk] problem in email text editor
Message-ID: <dd125add0910080632o1a49904cn514d414d842254b6@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

ths is Mangesh Sathe.
I have a problem in email text editor.

when i send email from my websites's text Editor ,even if some text is bold
or itealic or some text's colour is changed ,it gets delivered as a plain
text.

for example :

 gmail's email text editor

    *This* *is* PHP, editor.

    when person receives email it remains as it was like, *This* *is* PHP,
editor.

 but

 in My website's email editor, if i write
*     This* *is* PHP, editor.

  when person receives email it comes as plain text  like, This is php
edtior.

How can i solve this problem,
    What could be th error....
     Do i need to change the code?


waitin' for your  reply.

-- 
Thanks & Regards,
Mangesh Sathe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091008/37ecc1bf/attachment.html>

From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct  8 15:43:34 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:43:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910071806110.70331@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1421910536-1254942367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-471262078-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20091007190852.GI9746@zaph.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910071806110.70331@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910081541520.18999@pluto.atopia.net>

OK, I'm not really understanding what's going on here anymore.

Here's something I did:

oak$ svn merge -r 22:23 trunk/ branches/stable/
--- Merging r23 into 'branches/stable':
    C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
Summary of conflicts:
   Tree conflicts: 1
oak$ svn stat
       C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
       >   local edit, incoming delete upon merge
oak$



I don't understand.  All I did in revision 22:23 was delete the privs.php 
file.  Why is it saying it's a conflict?  It should just be deleting it 
also when I merge.

Or does it think the delete is a conflict even though it's supposed to do 
that.


From dcech at phpwerx.net  Thu Oct  8 15:49:56 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:49:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0910081541520.18999@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <1421910536-1254942367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-471262078-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<20091007190852.GI9746@zaph.org>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910071806110.70331@pluto.atopia.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0910081541520.18999@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4ACE4264.9040000@phpwerx.net>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> OK, I'm not really understanding what's going on here anymore.
> 
> Here's something I did:
> 
> oak$ svn merge -r 22:23 trunk/ branches/stable/
> --- Merging r23 into 'branches/stable':
>    C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
> Summary of conflicts:
>   Tree conflicts: 1
> oak$ svn stat
>       C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
>       >   local edit, incoming delete upon merge
> oak$
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand.  All I did in revision 22:23 was delete the
> privs.php file.  Why is it saying it's a conflict?  It should just be
> deleting it also when I merge.
> 
> Or does it think the delete is a conflict even though it's supposed to
> do that.

It sounds like your local copy of privs.php was modified before the
merge, so svn couldn't resolve the conflict that implies (trying to both
modify and delete the same file).  A good rule of thumb is to only merge
into a clean working copy, not only does it cut down on issues like
these, you also don't end up with a revision that has some changes from
the merge and other changes from your modifications mixed together.

I heartily recommend the excellent book 'Version Control with
Subversion', available free online here:

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/

Dan


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct  8 15:51:31 2009
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:51:31 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
Message-ID: <21821099-1255031493-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-945438591-@bda197.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

That's the thing. Its a perfectly clean working copy.  I even removed it and did a brand new checkout and tried again. There are no local modified files. 

For the record I have used svn for a while in the past and never encountered this recent issues. 
------Original Message------
From: Dan Cech
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
To: NYPHP Talk
Cc: N.J. Thomas
ReplyTo: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] [nycbug-talk] OT: SVN problem
Sent: Oct 8, 2009 12:49

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> OK, I'm not really understanding what's going on here anymore.
> 
> Here's something I did:
> 
> oak$ svn merge -r 22:23 trunk/ branches/stable/
> --- Merging r23 into 'branches/stable':
>    C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
> Summary of conflicts:
>   Tree conflicts: 1
> oak$ svn stat
>       C branches/stable/application/controllers/a/privs.php
>       >   local edit, incoming delete upon merge
> oak$
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand.  All I did in revision 22:23 was delete the
> privs.php file.  Why is it saying it's a conflict?  It should just be
> deleting it also when I merge.
> 
> Or does it think the delete is a conflict even though it's supposed to
> do that.

It sounds like your local copy of privs.php was modified before the
merge, so svn couldn't resolve the conflict that implies (trying to both
modify and delete the same file).  A good rule of thumb is to only merge
into a clean working copy, not only does it cut down on issues like
these, you also don't end up with a revision that has some changes from
the merge and other changes from your modifications mixed together.

I heartily recommend the excellent book 'Version Control with
Subversion', available free online here:

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/

Dan
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Fri Oct  9 00:12:22 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:12:22 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
Message-ID: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>

Hello NYPHP,

I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.

I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
category.

I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?

TIA for any comments.

-- 
Best regards,
 Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Oct  9 03:49:15 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 00:49:15 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
Message-ID: <1255074555.20194@coral.he.net>

> Hello NYPHP,
> 
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
> 
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
> 
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
> 
> TIA for any comments.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com


Hi Webmaster,

Yet another huge company has "signed on" with Drupal/PHP5 -- NBC is 
underway with a massive program to convert all their websites to 
Drupal/PHP.  (I know this because I'm interviewing for a spot on the 
team this week!)  If I go into this project, I'm sure in the upcoming 
months I'll have PLENTY to say about Drupal's ins and outs...I hated 
CodeIgniter with a bloody passion.  CakePHP on the other hand, while I 
haven't used the entire framework, has some great code that inspired me 
to rewrite and use...

I'm another "ambivalent about frameworks" PHP programmer.  10 years ago 
for the web, there were no frameworks for anything, and people were 
impressed by simple stuff like a mouseover effect or a pop-out menu or 
a website that actually used a database!  Now, there is code already 
written for all this stuff -- frameworks as it were -- and that raises 
the bar on what we, as programmers, need to produce in order to impress 
people.

This is the trend that I've seen in PHP5 overall, in that we are all 
writing less "original" code and using more "frameworked" code, so 
therefore spending more time analyzing and integrating and less time 
writing and playing...but adding on to existing code is a complex task 
in and of itself...

Over the years I've spent the bulk of my career mucking around in 
already-existing code, and I've fixed enough authentication code that 
didn't authenticate, CMS that were designed without an edit mode, 
databases that lacked necessary fields, and etc etc to see why 
frameworks are a good thing from management's perspective...when their 
goal is to squeeze more productive work out of each programmer for the 
same amount of money...

When we sign on as programmers, this becomes our fact of life.  Is the 
fact that we are using frameworks in PHP5 (and presumably, not writing 
one?) an indication that we've "failed" as a programmer?  In my view, 
if we are making money and producing quality code in what has to be one 
of the most challenging fields around, we're not failures.  

I've long ago resigned myself to the fact that I just have too much 
interest in other things in life (like baseball, shopping, sleeping, 
reading) to EVER be one of those "super-genius" programmers.  In some 
circles, having interests other than programming is viewed with supreme 
suspicion...but we are, also, human beings, even if some don't care to 
admit this.

The bulk of us do like to be able to make a living and still have time 
left over to catch the game or read that book we've been wanting to get 
to or spend time with people we care about...if frameworks can help us 
do that, are we "failures"?   I think we are too hard on ourselves, and 
that makes it easier for management to be hard on us (and make us work 
harder for less money), as a result...

Kristina



From ramons at gmx.net  Fri Oct  9 07:14:30 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 07:14:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1255074555.20194@coral.he.net>
References: <1255074555.20194@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4ACF1B16.2010605@gmx.net>

Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I

Then you haven't talked to those who are fluent in assembler, I mean, really 
fluent. Many of them think that higher programming languages is just kiddie 
stuff you dabble with in high school.

> I'm another "ambivalent about frameworks" PHP programmer.  10 years ago 
> for the web, there were no frameworks for anything, and people were 
> impressed by simple stuff like a mouseover effect or a pop-out menu or 
> a website that actually used a database!  Now, there is code already 
> written for all this stuff -- frameworks as it were -- and that raises 
> the bar on what we, as programmers, need to produce in order to impress 
> people.

I'm im pressed with software (web or other) that works and is consistent. I 
currently do a project that involves time calculations and metric measurements 
as well as UI portions, all of which were developed by different programmers. 
The new code is correct, but all the old code is horribly wrong. The same time 
value is calculated differently by each developer and of course it is never 
the same. Same for UI, each piece looks and behaves slightly different.
What we need and already decided to do during the next evolution of the 
application is to create a framework. Why code something that is already 
there? Why invent the wheel twice and wrong both times? It is this detail work 
that once done and of good quality replicates this quality into every piece of 
code that makes use of the framework.
That said, I looked at Drupal some time ago as framework for a custom CMS / 
workflow app and I was impressed. It is really nice work. I eventually 
scrapped the project, not because Drupal didn't work out, but because it was 
mile high over my head and due to lack of domain knowledge not well designed 
from the start. I still had some fun and made great experiences.

There is nothing wrong with using a framework if it is a good, solid framework 
of excellent quality. As mentioned above, any bug in the framework will sooner 
or later become a bug in your software and then it is your task to deal with 
it.....unless you code in .NET and conveniently blame it on Microsoft like all 
the other inept .NET developers (about 90% of all .NET developers).

So go ahead, use Drupal, it's nice stuff.

David


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 09:46:04 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:46:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910090646v305b8e5egfefe703e24433683@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Webmaster,

I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
not.

That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.

I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
to code.

-- Mitch

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> category.
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> ?Webmaster ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From ant92083 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 10:19:35 2009
From: ant92083 at gmail.com (Anthony Wlodarski)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:19:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910090646v305b8e5egfefe703e24433683@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<330532b60910090646v305b8e5egfefe703e24433683@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43bc541c0910090719u285684fbqcaa9b65a3f598c01@mail.gmail.com>

As a former developer and contributor to the original core of Thrillist.com
(built with Drupal 5.x), I can safely say that it is the wrong technology
for a lot of websites.  It may be great for what Mitch stated, "community
sites" but other than that it is a failure in many respects.  Even with 6.x
there are major scalability issues and most of the major modules available
have poor contribution support which means when they break you are S.O.L.
(but that is with any Open Source software and I won't go on because Drupal
gave me a venue to start my career).

My big concern is that these companies consider products like Drupal a
"framework" when they are not, especially NBC.  Many of our careers start
with different pieces of technology, mine started with Drupal and I have on
since then and have been working heavily with CakePHP and I can easily
duplicate many of Drupal's modules quite easily within a few hours.  It is
all relative to your position at the time, and if you are making money using
Drupal, who cares what anyone else says.

Also Mitch, viva la Vi! ;)

-Anthony

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Webmaster,
>
> I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
> complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
> not.
>
> That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
> taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
> strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.
>
> I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
> Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
> linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
> current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
> maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
> to code.
>
> -- Mitch
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
> > Hello NYPHP,
> >
> > I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> > at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
> >
> > I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> > DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> > can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> > care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> > amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> > user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> > for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> > if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> > equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> > category.
> >
> > I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> > really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> > correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
> >
> > TIA for any comments.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Anthony W.
ant92083 at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091009/3832ca8d/attachment.html>

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Oct  9 10:40:30 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 07:40:30 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
Message-ID: <1255099230.32405@coral.he.net>

A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)

And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...

David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not 
being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used 
to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  Hmm...  

That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market is, 
and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the 
market goeth...there goeth I.

That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they 
started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)

- Kristina

> 
> As a former developer and contributor to the original core of 
Thrillist.com
> (built with Drupal 5.x), I can safely say that it is the wrong 
technology
> for a lot of websites.  It may be great for what Mitch 
stated, "community
> sites" but other than that it is a failure in many respects.  Even 
with 6.x
> there are major scalability issues and most of the major modules 
available
> have poor contribution support which means when they break you are 
S.O.L.
> (but that is with any Open Source software and I won't go on because 
Drupal
> gave me a venue to start my career).
> 
> My big concern is that these companies consider products like Drupal a
> "framework" when they are not, especially NBC.  Many of our careers 
start
> with different pieces of technology, mine started with Drupal and I 
have on
> since then and have been working heavily with CakePHP and I can easily
> duplicate many of Drupal's modules quite easily within a few hours.  
It is
> all relative to your position at the time, and if you are making 
money using
> Drupal, who cares what anyone else says.
> 
> Also Mitch, viva la Vi! ;)
> 
> -Anthony
> 
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> 
> > Hey Webmaster,
> >
> > I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
> > complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
> > not.
> >
> > That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers 
are
> > taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. 
A
> > strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really 
shines.
> >
> > I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, 
er,
> > Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-
emacs,
> > linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
> > current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
> > maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and 
like
> > to code.
> >
> > -- Mitch
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
> > > Hello NYPHP,
> > >
> > > I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a 
look
> > > at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
> > >
> > > I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said 
that
> > > DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From 
what I
> > > can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> > > care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend 
huge
> > > amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, 
i.e.
> > > user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this 
makes
> > > for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer 
and
> > > if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like 
CAKE or
> > > equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> > > category.
> > >
> > > I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> > > really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see 
the
> > > correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I 
missing?
> > >
> > > TIA for any comments.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > >  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > >
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Anthony W.
> ant92083 at gmail.com
> 
> 







From d at ingk.com  Fri Oct  9 10:39:54 2009
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:39:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910090646v305b8e5egfefe703e24433683@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<330532b60910090646v305b8e5egfefe703e24433683@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0a185de0910090739j292fa400ta14b9fe8a11bc426@mail.gmail.com>

In practice, Drupal proved far too primitive for a project my company is
currently working on in social networking.  The need for customization
outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After
~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we
scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty
code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way,
so we have to rewrite this module."  In hindsight, the time spent
customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to
roll our own features.  Less sophisticated applications may thrive on a
Drupal CMS foundation.  This is perhaps one example from which the "failed
programmer" cry stems -- in other words, the offending Tweeter might have
been suggesting that a capable programmer(s) could do more (perhaps faster)
by rolling their own system (although I agree the Tweet is more than a tad
dramatic).  Your impression of Drupal may prove different depending on
project requirements.  In the end, our team has found it far easier to
customize/perfect our own code than to re-tool someone else's code.  I
haven't looked at Joomla enough to form an opinion, but I admire some
elements of CakePHP -- we have borrowed some ideas from Cake and nothing
from Drupal.
---
Damion Hankejh | hankejh.com




On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Webmaster,
>
> I'm a Joomla founder so I should be as biased as they come. My only
> complaint about Drupal is folks calling it a framework, which it is
> not.
>
> That aside, Drupal is experiencing huge growth and many developers are
> taking advantage of it as their base platform for developing sites. A
> strength is community sites, where Drupal's flexibility really shines.
>
> I suspect this person you are referring to (the offending Tweeter, er,
> Twit) is just a troll starting up another tired round of vi-vs-emacs,
> linux-vs-osx, and so on... Drupal is great, and to be blunt, ALL
> current frameworks, platforms and languages have reached a level of
> maturity that you choose what fits the way you like to think, and like
> to code.
>
> -- Mitch
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:12 AM,  <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
> > Hello NYPHP,
> >
> > I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> > at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
> >
> > I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> > DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer. From what I
> > can see so far, DRUPAL seems to be a "core" that pretty much takes
> > care of all the "busy work" that you would normally have to spend huge
> > amounts of time on if you were programming a site from scratch, i.e.
> > user authorization, permissions, etc. etc. I don't see that this makes
> > for the argument that anyone who uses it is a "failed" programmer and
> > if that is indeed true, what makes cumbersome frameworks like CAKE or
> > equivalent software not fall into the same "failed" programmer
> > category.
> >
> > I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> > really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> > correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
> >
> > TIA for any comments.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091009/f6d2f4f7/attachment.html>

From tedd at sperling.com  Fri Oct  9 10:49:24 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:49:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1255099230.32405@coral.he.net>
References: <1255099230.32405@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240808c6f4fdcc836f@[192.168.1.102]>

At 7:40 AM -0700 10/9/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)
>
>And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...
>
>David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not
>being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used
>to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  Hmm... 
>
>That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market is,
>and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the
>market goeth...there goeth I.
>
>That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they
>started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)
>
>- Kristina

As always, good advice.

Cheers,

tedd
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Fri Oct  9 10:57:27 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 07:57:27 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
Message-ID: <1255100247.4330@coral.he.net>

> At 7:40 AM -0700 10/9/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >A little bird told me that top-posting == bad :)
> >
> >And Mitch, I think you are a little overqualified for the NBC gig...
> >
> >David -- As a former ASP/VB Programmer, I took tons of flak for not
> >being a "real programmer" as you mentioned occurs ... to which I used
> >to respond, do the numbers on this paycheck look REAL to you?  
Hmm... 
> >
> >That's why I'm happy to give Drupal a shot...it's where the market 
is,
> >and if there's one thing I've learned in the IT field it's where the
> >market goeth...there goeth I.
> >
> >That's why I ditched Microsoft like a boring blind date when they
> >started the .NET nonsense...I'm just that kind of gal. :)
> >
> >- Kristina
> 
> As always, good advice.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> -- 
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 
> 

Tedd --

Thanks!  Now I just have to keep hacking away so that someday, my 
programming will be as good as my advice! :)

Seriously, I'm curious now as to how well they are doing with the 
Drupal codebase -- NBC has a TON of sites, but a lot of them don't have 
much functionality to speak of, just fancy graphics.  They want a 
minimum 12-month commitment so it's clear they're not expecting any 
overnight miracles...

Kristina



From ajai at bitblit.net  Fri Oct  9 11:16:40 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:16:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <c0a185de0910090739j292fa400ta14b9fe8a11bc426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910091108560.17512-100000@bitblit.net>

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Damion Hankejh wrote:

> The need for customization
> outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After
> ~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we
> scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty
> code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way,
> so we have to rewrite this module."  In hindsight, the time spent
> customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to
> roll our own features.

This mirrors my own experience using content systems to build web sites, 
and why I moved on to frameworks. At some point there are just too 
many integration points where it becomes more costly to modify and 
maintain than building with a solid framework. Drupal is not really a 
framework and wasn't designed to be, but ome people have molded 
(twisted?) it to do more.



-- 
Aj.



From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 11:43:28 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910091108560.17512-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <c0a185de0910090739j292fa400ta14b9fe8a11bc426@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910091108560.17512-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <330532b60910090843w3eed204n4c9737e82d78b73d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Damion Hankejh wrote:
>
>> The need for customization
>> outstripped the usefulness and time savings of its base functionality. After
>> ~2 months of working with it and some top-shelf Drupal consultants, we
>> scrapped everything in Drupal and returned to our custom PHP/MySQL/Smarty
>> code base -- I quickly grew tired of hearing, "Drupal does things this way,
>> so we have to rewrite this module." ?In hindsight, the time spent
>> customizing Drupal to meet our requirements would have been better used to
>> roll our own features.
>
> This mirrors my own experience using content systems to build web sites,
> and why I moved on to frameworks. At some point there are just too
> many integration points where it becomes more costly to modify and
> maintain than building with a solid framework. Drupal is not really a
> framework and wasn't designed to be, but ome people have molded
> (twisted?) it to do more.

I was in a similar situation at MTV - and opted to go with the Joomla
framework (and NOT the CMS) for this exact reason. A CMS has to be a
one-size-fits-all proposition in order to be useful to a wide
audience, and that makes bloat and inflexibility an unfortunate
passenger.

I used the Joomla framework much in a way one would use CodeIgniter,
Zend or Kohana - I built exactly what was needed, and nothing more. No
timezone support, no dynamic navigation, no multibyte characters, etc.
That is the only way you can make scalable websites, and I think that
is the main reason the stack/scaffold frameworks like RoR, Symfony and
Cake get such a bad rap for scale.

Until Drupal truly makes a framework under their CMS, they will have
the same problems - something I discussed with some core contributors
several years ago. I hope that is the route they take, as that
provides many additional benefits as well.

-- Mitch


From smanes at magpie.com  Sun Oct 11 21:38:36 2009
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:38:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>

webmaster at vbplusme.com wrote:
> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module 
if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 22:08:11 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:08:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910111908w699c586fv879a4e6eece45fc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Steve Manes <smanes at magpie.com> wrote:
> webmaster at vbplusme.com wrote:
>>
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.
>
> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module if
> he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.

Beating a dead horse here, but just came up with a pretty good
response to the tweet in question:

"Can you build a fully functional website with admin interface in less
than 600 seconds? My failed programmer can."

-- Mitch, with a big grin


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 22:09:39 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:09:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] My code|works slides
Message-ID: <330532b60910111909x45dd8520xaba6acd6101b102d@mail.gmail.com>

"Thin Server Architecture", if anyone was looking for the slides they
are now online:

http://www.slideshare.net/spacemonkeylabs/thin-server-architecture

Was a fun talk, pretty gobsmacked at the big names in the audience,
and even more gobsmacked I didn't recognize any of them by their
faces.

-- Mitch, with a slight blush


From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 11 22:38:58 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:38:58 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <1193009462.20091012103858@vbplusme.com>

Hello Steve,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:38:36 AM, you wrote:

> webmaster at vbplusme.com wrote:
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module
> if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4498 (20091011) __________

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

> http://www.eset.com




Actually, that was my exact reaction when I read the comment. Thanks
for all the replies to my post, I appreciate them all though I am
still a little confused about how joomla was described as a framework
and drupal as not?

-- 
Best regards,
 Webmaster                            mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com



From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 11 22:40:03 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:40:03 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910111908w699c586fv879a4e6eece45fc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
	<330532b60910111908w699c586fv879a4e6eece45fc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1466161668.20091012104003@vbplusme.com>

Hello Mitch,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 10:08:11 AM, you wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Steve Manes <smanes at magpie.com> wrote:
>> webmaster at vbplusme.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.
>>
>> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module if
>> he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.

> Beating a dead horse here, but just came up with a pretty good
> response to the tweet in question:

> "Can you build a fully functional website with admin interface in less
> than 600 seconds? My failed programmer can."

> -- Mitch, with a big grin
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4498 (20091011) __________

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

> http://www.eset.com




HA! very good response, thanks.

-- 
Best regards,
 Webmaster                            mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com



From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 11 22:45:24 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:45:24 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <196584612.20091012104524@vbplusme.com>

Hello Steve,

Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:38:36 AM, you wrote:

> webmaster at vbplusme.com wrote:
>> I noticed a few days ago that someone did a Twitter post and said that
>> DRUPAL is what you use when you are a "failed" programmer.

> Let him take a shot at learning the D6 API and building a Drupal module
> if he thinks it's only for "failed" programmers.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4498 (20091011) __________

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

> http://www.eset.com




I do a most PHP module work on existing platforms that are not always
coded using best practices and it can be pretty challenging sometimes
to "get it right" when you are working in a junkyard, not of your own
making,  LOL.  Compared to some of that stuff, Drupal looks like a
dream come true.

-- 
Best regards,
 Webmaster                            mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com



From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 22:51:21 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:51:21 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1193009462.20091012103858@vbplusme.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<4AD2889C.5000206@magpie.com> <1193009462.20091012103858@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910111951s3e2adffs5512ad08f9bacbc6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:38 PM,  <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, that was my exact reaction when I read the comment. Thanks
> for all the replies to my post, I appreciate them all though I am
> still a little confused about how joomla was described as a framework
> and drupal as not?

The Joomla project is actually splitting out the framework for
separate distribution as many folks don't realize that the standard
Joomla 1.5 download actually contains:

* Joomla framework
* Joomla installation app (uses framework)
* Joomla front end app (uses framework)
* Joomla back end app (uses framework)

This is a big difference from a developer perspective, as I can
completely disregard CMS features by just using the framework, which
is a glue framework akin to Zend, Kohana, CodeIgniter et al.

Drupal however, is one application. I don't think there is a framework
under the hood that was used to create the Drupal CMS. This is not a
slight to Drupal though - in fact I usually recommend folks go with a
full CMS like Drupal or Joomla, as framework developed apps need a
developer to maintain, and full CMS stacks can be updated without
writing code (in a perfect world, at least).

Maybe I'm just being pedantic, as to me "framework" != "content
management system". What do you folks think?

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework

-- Mitch


From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Oct 12 00:54:11 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:54:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910111951s3e2adffs5512ad08f9bacbc6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910120048180.17512-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> The Joomla project is actually splitting out the framework for
> separate distribution

"Is" meaning in the future but not right now?

> as many folks don't realize that the standard
> Joomla 1.5 download actually contains:
> 
> * Joomla framework
> * Joomla installation app (uses framework)
> * Joomla front end app (uses framework)
> * Joomla back end app (uses framework)

Of course, it is the source of much confusion. Your 'insider' knowledge of 
Joomla means its probably clear to you which parts are the framework and 
which are not. Unfortunately its not clear to us. Is there a framework 
site? Are there any definitive docs? Any tutorials? To *me*, the Jommla 
docs have always been rather lacking.



-- 
Aj.



From anoland at indigente.net  Mon Oct 12 10:28:44 2009
From: anoland at indigente.net (Adrian Noland)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:28:44 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <1d8a0e930910120728m417238c5qb9bff07abbd0cdde@mail.gmail.com>

Says it better than I can:
http://robozen.com/technology/drupal-sucks/

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:12 PM, <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:

> Hello NYPHP,
>
> I have seen a few posts here about DRUPAL and decided to take a look
> at it to see if it might be useful for some of my projects.
>
>
> I realize that this was a "shoot from the hip" comment but would
> really like to hear other opinions about it. So far, I don't see the
> correlation between DRUPAL and "failed" programmer, what am I missing?
>
> TIA for any comments.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091012/09da04fc/attachment.html>

From justin at justinhileman.info  Mon Oct 12 12:22:17 2009
From: justin at justinhileman.info (justin)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:22:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <1d8a0e930910120728m417238c5qb9bff07abbd0cdde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1599410877.20091009121222@vbplusme.com>
	<1d8a0e930910120728m417238c5qb9bff07abbd0cdde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1dc0e7e00910120922if7ef457mbc0fc91d0dcbc888@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Adrian Noland <anoland at indigente.net> wrote:
> Says it better than I can:
> http://robozen.com/technology/drupal-sucks/
>

>From Trever Twining, in the comments of that very same post:

"The author is entitled to his opinion, but it is seriously
misinformed. In haste he?s drawn up a huge variety of assumptions
about Drupal and its operation that could easily be put to rest with a
little bit of time with the system and it?s fantastic community of
developers and other professionals working with it every day.

"I think it?s equal to argue that you can do anything useful with
Rails without downloading additional code to assist, whether it?s more
gems, code snippets, and other things. Try doing anything but the 10
minute blog tutorial without knowing anything about Rails and see how
productive you are. At the end of that exercise, someone who hasn?t
spent the time to learn the framework could very well argue that Rails
sucks. But that would be an equally ill-formed opinion.

"My point is that these frameworks help with productivity because you
invest the time to become familiar with them. Such a framework will
always have shortcomings and bugaboos. The truth is tens of thousands
of people are doing incredible things with Drupal every day, both as a
framework and a CMS, and have found the ways around the things you
list as limitations."


-- 
justin
http://justinhileman.com


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 22:36:44 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:36:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Drupal Framework / CMS Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910120048180.17512-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <330532b60910111951s3e2adffs5512ad08f9bacbc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910120048180.17512-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <330532b60910121936o39756e02v876939121debb32d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Mitch Pirtle wrote:
>
>> The Joomla project is actually splitting out the framework for
>> separate distribution
>
> "Is" meaning in the future but not right now?

It is a project that is taking place right now. I'm not involved in it
so I cannot promise when it will be done, but there is a new developer
resource that is going up specifically for stuff that is not the CMS,
but the framework and other non-CMS things (as well as some really
experimental stuff to play with).

>> as many folks don't realize that the standard
>> Joomla 1.5 download actually contains:
>>
>> * Joomla framework
>> * Joomla installation app (uses framework)
>> * Joomla front end app (uses framework)
>> * Joomla back end app (uses framework)
>
> Of course, it is the source of much confusion. Your 'insider' knowledge of
> Joomla means its probably clear to you which parts are the framework and
> which are not. Unfortunately its not clear to us. Is there a framework
> site? Are there any definitive docs? Any tutorials? To *me*, the Jommla
> docs have always been rather lacking.

You should have attended my Joomla Extension Development talk at
Joomla Day this morning :^P

-- Mitch


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 13:25:32 2009
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:25:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
Message-ID: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few people
here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some advice.

As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't hold you
accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).

I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with a
designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting clients at a
great pace.  Obviously, the question is arising as to whether or not we
should LLC our "group" and make things official and to prevent losing
everything we own, and to look more professional.  However, I've heard
conflicting things about what to do.

I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now I
might not be so sure.  What are the rules to getting an LLC?  Do I need an
address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?  Does the LLC
need an official bank account in order for the checks to be cashed / money
to be transferred?
 How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?

I'm very curious about how this all works!

Thanks in advance,
Brian O'Connor
-- 
Brian O'Connor
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091013/3810a288/attachment.html>

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct 13 13:46:48 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:46:48 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
Message-ID: <1255456008.14519@coral.he.net>



> 
> Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few 
people
> here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some advice.
> 
> As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't 
hold you
> accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).
> 
> I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with 
a
> designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting 
clients at a
> great pace.  Obviously, the question is arising as to whether or not 
we
> should LLC our "group" and make things official and to prevent losing
> everything we own, and to look more professional.  However, I've heard
> conflicting things about what to do.
> 
> I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now 
I
> might not be so sure.  What are the rules to getting an LLC?  Do I 
need an
> address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?  Does 
the LLC
> need an official bank account in order for the checks to be cashed / 
money
> to be transferred?
>  How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?
> 
> I'm very curious about how this all works!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian O'Connor
> -- 
> Brian O'Connor
> 
> 

Hi Brian -- 

As Tedd would say -- "Oh no, there's two of you".

Yes, you do need a company bank account (and to let the bank know who 
has permission to sign checks), and also need to file all the paperwork 
with the state of formation the same way as for an "Inc." Corporation, 
first.  To open the account you will possibly need a letter from the 
attorney who assisted you in creating the entity, as to its legal 
existence and proper formation.

Taxes vary according to the type of entity.  Also, after expenses, 
partners would be drawing income out of the entity and that would then 
be taxable as personal income.  Salaries to partners or employees is of 
course a business expense of the entity.

About the arcane legal differences between a Limited Partnership (LP), 
a Limited Liability Company (LLC), and a Corporation...I doubt anyone 
BUT a lawyer could answer that.  I was a paralegal for 5 years and I 
can't even recall this.   I know that it has more to do with the 
partners' obligations towards EACH OTHER .... all three shield you from 
personal liability if someone sues your entity, I believe.

Kristina



From eric.gewirtz at solutiononecdi.com  Tue Oct 13 14:10:40 2009
From: eric.gewirtz at solutiononecdi.com (Eric Gewirtz)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:10:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <602BA7116FD24839BA3559DC43F02BAA@Libby>

Hi Brian,

 

It is not hard to set up an LLC, but if you decide to do so I highly
recommend that at the very least you talk to a good CPA. Here is a link
(http://www.dos.state.ny.us/corp/faq.html ) to NY states website on faq;s
for setting up an LLC. It really is a easy as picking a name and filling out
the application to reserve the name and then filling out and filing the
Articles of Organization but as you indicate in your questions there are tax
implications to becoming an LLC vs corp vs partnerships and an accountant
can better help you assess what is best for you.

 

The website is very good and you can get all the forms you need to do it
yourself. The smarter you are about the process the less it will cost you to
set up the LLC because there are a lot of people out there that charge lot
of money to help set you up making it seem like it is complicated. As I
mentioned before, definitely talk to a good CPA.

 

Good Luck

 

Eric

 

SolutionOne

Eric Gewirtz

162 Turk Hill Road

Brewster NY, 10509

Phone: 845-729-7800

FAX:    845-279-5502

 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Brian O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:26 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business

 

Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few people
here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some advice.

 

As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't hold you
accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).

 

I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with a
designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting clients at a
great pace.  Obviously, the question is arising as to whether or not we
should LLC our "group" and make things official and to prevent losing
everything we own, and to look more professional.  However, I've heard
conflicting things about what to do.  

 

I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now I
might not be so sure.  What are the rules to getting an LLC?  Do I need an
address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?  Does the LLC
need an official bank account in order for the checks to be cashed / money
to be transferred?


How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?

 

I'm very curious about how this all works!

 

Thanks in advance,

Brian O'Connor
-- 
Brian O'Connor

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091013/5a22ead5/attachment.html>

From tedd at sperling.com  Tue Oct 13 15:06:43 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:06:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
In-Reply-To: <1255456008.14519@coral.he.net>
References: <1255456008.14519@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240800c6fa784cc2fc@[192.168.0.100]>

Brian:

I recommend seeking the advise of an attorney and having him/her draw 
up the articles of incorporation. You can discuss with the attorney 
what the advantages and disadvantages are of the different types of 
incorporation (e.g., S, C, LLC). Each has it's own tax structure.

If the corporation is drawn up correctly and the rules of the 
corporation are followed, then you will protect yourself from 
personal liability in the event that something bad happens, like 
accidentally dropping a client's customer table while working with 
his database when there was no backup.

You should also think about getting an "errors and omissions" policy 
for that exact same reason. While having a corporate umbrella does 
protect you from being personally libel, losing a corporation is not 
the best thing that can happen to you either -- so protect the 
corporation as well.

Also, being in a corporation does come with some liability. For 
example, if you are the secretary treasurer, then that makes you 
personally responsible for state and federal withholding taxes for 
employees. So don't think you're totally safe just because you're in 
a corporation.

For example, I was a partner and the secretary treasurer of another 
corporation. I left the corporation employ, sold my stock and 
completely dissolved my relationship with the corporation. However 
two years after I quit, the corporation hired an employee and a year 
later went bankrupt. The State of Michigan came after me for the 
withholding taxes for that employee even though the infraction 
occurred three years after I had left. I spent two days fighting with 
the State showing them that I was not responsible. After which, the 
State of Michigan still would not release me from the liability other 
than to say "We'll see... ". I had to turn it over to my attorney to 
get the issue resolved. A big waste of time and money.

Additionally, if you pierce the corporate vail by not passing income 
through the corporation but taking payment directly, then you forfeit 
the corporate protection. Likewise, not having an annual minutes 
meeting can dissolve the corporation leaving you unprotected. There 
are at least a dozen rules like this that you must follow. So, hire 
an attorney, have him/her prepare the papers, and ask what your 
responsibilities are. There's no reason to start up a corporation if 
you don't know how to use it or what your responsibilities are.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From ioplex at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 15:09:34 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:09:34 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910131209n1a747304r5933a46c12ae397f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Brian O'Connor <gatzby3jr at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few people
> here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some advice.
>
> As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't hold you
> accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).
>
> I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with a
> designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting clients at a
> great pace.? Obviously, the question is arising as to whether or not we
> should LLC our "group" and make things official and to prevent losing
> everything we own, and to look more professional.? However, I've heard
> conflicting things about what to do.
>
> I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now I
> might not be so sure.? What are the rules to getting an LLC?? Do I need an
> address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?

Hi Brian,

Yes. You have to register your business name with the state. It has to
be unique and it has to end in "LLC" (or some limited permutations
thereof).

>? Does the LLC
> need an official bank account in order for the checks to be cashed / money
> to be transferred?

No. But it costs nothing to open one and you'll look dumb if you
cannot accept checks and wires to a company name. To open a company
bank account you just need an EIN:

  http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0%2C%2Cid%3D102767%2C00.html

This is the number that you'll use everywhere in place of your SSN
such as on a W-9 (a form that customers use verify with the IRS that
you are in fact registered as you claim).

> How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?

I'm not sure about 2 members but for a sole member it's easy. You just
do your regular self-employed tax return but you do an extra schedule.
I suspect it's roughly the same for 2 members but I'm not sure how you
would report what percent of the revenue is yours. Just call up H&R
Block or google it.

Note that you might also need to register to collect tax in the LLC's
state if you deliver product to that state.

So just register your LLC name with the state, get the EIN, open the
back account and your done. I don't think it even costs anything. I
think maybe I paid $50 for something.

In general, becoming an LLC is very easy. When I first did it, it was
because someone sent me a big check made out to my company name. As
soon as I saw the check I literally registered the name, got the EIN,
opened the bank account and deposited the check in a matter of hours.

Note that all of the above is for a sole member LLC in NJ. It might be
a little different in NY and with a partner. I don't know. Just Google
your way through it. It's fairly obvious. At least it's not worth
paying anyone to do IMO.

Mike


From jontas at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 15:21:40 2009
From: jontas at gmail.com (Jon Tascher)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:21:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
Message-ID: <37728ee0910131221l55814702l1e1b32eed0289a5a@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget the publication requirement.  In New York you are required to
publish information about your new LLC in 2 newspapers and then submit proof
of this back to the state.  I spent like $500 or so getting my LLC via
LegalZoom, only to find out at the end I had to pay another ~$600 for the
publication.
For more info, see:
http://www.newyorksmallbusinesslaw.com/new_york_small_business_l/2007/01/taking_care_of_.html

Jon Tascher
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091013/60d86014/attachment.html>

From 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com  Tue Oct 13 15:25:38 2009
From: 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com (inforequest)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27911-79212@sneakemail.com>

Brian O'Connor gatzby3jr-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal group 
use| wrote:
> Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few 
> people here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some 
> advice.
>  
> As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't 
> hold you accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).
>  
> I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with 
> a designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting 
> clients at a great pace.  Obviously, the question is arising as to 
> whether or not we should LLC our "group" and make things official and 
> to prevent losing everything we own, and to look more professional.  
> However, I've heard conflicting things about what to do. 
>  
> I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now 
> I might not be so sure.  What are the rules to getting an LLC?  Do I 
> need an address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?  
> Does the LLC need an official bank account in order for the checks to 
> be cashed / money to be transferred?
> How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?
>  
> I'm very curious about how this all works!
>  
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian O'Connor
> -- 
> Brian O'Connor
Your specific questions are indeed OT but the topic (addressing the 
issue) is not.

I am not a lawyer, but here's my advice:

1. don't take advice from a list or forum. Read it if you like, as a 
means of gaining perspective from peers, but don't follow any of it. 
Including this part ;-)

2. use this group activity (your first "company") to advance your self 
in this regard. You all need to learn, and education costs money. But, 
if you think education is expensive, you need to check the cost of 
ignorance. Resolving this issue AS A GROUP achieves a number of PERSNAL 
gains for you:

a. you get to see how your group makes decisions about expenses and risk 
management (important for future)
b. you get to see how your group collaborates on tough issues outside of 
scope (who will be the CEO anyway?)
c. you get to see how your partnership values intangible expenses (like 
your own time and effort put into finding a good accountant or lawyer)
d. you get the group to cover the costs of education (your personal cost 
is 1/n of the total cost...which saves you money later)
e. Any individuals who actually worked hard and paid attention, like you 
hopefully, walk away with personal knowledge of how to do it right next 
time (more cheaply)

Note that this is why someone gets to be "CEO"... she takes the 
responsibility for managing the decision process, and later gets the 
credit for having managed it.

3.  Interview several accountants and several lawyers, for free. If you 
can't accomplish that, you're not ready to represent your group and 
incur a bill from one. If the group can't allocate attention to that, 
reconsider your planned organization. It might be best for ONE of you to 
form an entity that employs the others or otherwise manages the 
business. After all, the rewards need to follow the risk.

4. Remember that besides the part about limiting liability and buying 
insurance, there is no correct answer to the question. The proper answer 
from ANY lawyer or accountant is that it depends on how YOU want to 
structure things. How will an individual quit the group? How will you 
all decide what to do with profits earned? How often will that be 
addressed? How to invest more money into the enterprise? How to take on 
another partner? How will each account for the income on taxes (each 
person is in a unique situation in that regard) ? What happens if one 
person doesn't uphold responsibilities?

ANY suggestion from anyone else is just that : a suggestion of how that 
accountant or lawyer might doing it, knowing (probably) less than you do 
about your group and its business. Following the recommended advice 
should not sound like a good idea to you... because it is not. YOU need 
to know what is best for YOU.  Worst case, it is a suggestion of how 
that lawyer or accountant can make the most in fees for the least amount 
of work. Interviewing a few should tell you which ones are mostly 
interested in earning your incorporation fees, and which ones would 
rather get that part going a.s.a.p. so they can help you make and keep 
your $$$, so they get lots more business from you as you grow and need 
more services. Again, is it getting clearer why one person is CEO while 
another is CTO or CFO?

IMHO the bottom line is to do SOMETHING now, without investing $2000, 
and have expert advice FROM THAT POINT FORWARD so you can manage your 
situation properly (legally, efficiently). As you learn and grow, the 
reasons for making specific changes will become apparent; they provide 
the justification you all need to make the decision to change something 
in the future. Nothing going forward should be a guess. That's why you 
pay professionals for their expertise - so you don't have to guess. If 
you ever see that you have a bill from your professional, yet have to 
make what seems like a best guess decision, take that as a clue you need 
a different professional.

I hope that helps ;-)

-=john




From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct 13 15:40:05 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:40:05 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
Message-ID: <1255462805.5374@coral.he.net>

> Tedd wrote:
> 
> I recommend seeking the advise of an attorney and having him/her draw 
> up the articles of incorporation. You can discuss with the attorney 
> what the advantages and disadvantages are of the different types of 
> incorporation (e.g., S, C, LLC). Each has it's own tax structure.
> 

Absotively.  A business partnership is like a marriage and there is a 
LOT of detail to these agreements, and consequences that are way more 
complicated than if you just go it alone as a sole proprietor.


> Additionally, if you pierce the corporate vail by not passing income 
> through the corporation but taking payment directly, then you forfeit 
> the corporate protection. Likewise, not having an annual minutes 
> meeting can dissolve the corporation leaving you unprotected. There 
> are at least a dozen rules like this that you must follow. So, hire 
> an attorney, have him/her prepare the papers, and ask what your 
> responsibilities are. There's no reason to start up a corporation if 
> you don't know how to use it or what your responsibilities are.

What Tedd is saying above is true -- that having an entity like this is 
a PITFA because once you form it, that's JUST the beginning of the 
fun.  A cursory look at the "Corporate Tax Forms for NYS" will disabuse 
you of any idea that this is not a whole new eggplant.

Kristina




From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Tue Oct 13 15:49:18 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:49:18 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
Message-ID: <1255463358.11117@coral.he.net>

>
> 3.  Interview several accountants and several lawyers, for free. If 
you 
> can't accomplish that, you're not ready to represent your group and 
> incur a bill from one. If the group can't allocate attention to that, 
> reconsider your planned organization. It might be best for ONE of you 
to 
> form an entity that employs the others or otherwise manages the 
> business. After all, the rewards need to follow the risk.

> 4. Remember that besides the part about limiting liability and buying 
> insurance, there is no correct answer to the question. The proper 
answer 
> from ANY lawyer or accountant is that it depends on how YOU want to 
> structure things. How will an individual quit the group? How will you 
> all decide what to do with profits earned? How often will that be 
> addressed? How to invest more money into the enterprise? How to take 
on 
> another partner? How will each account for the income on taxes (each 
> person is in a unique situation in that regard) ? What happens if one 
> person doesn't uphold responsibilities?
> 
> -=john
> 

Some more gems of wisdom, above.  Make sure the relationship works for 
you and makes sense overall.  Make sure you have 100% confidence that 
the other person(s) in the relationship will honor their commitments.

In other words, don't just incorporate with the first person who asks.

:)

Kristina


From corey at bmfenterprises.com  Tue Oct 13 16:04:02 2009
From: corey at bmfenterprises.com (Corey Fogarty)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:04:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PhpMyAdmin 3.2.0.1 - 3.2.2.1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4810.1255460976.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <C6FA5572.75CD1%corey@bmfenterprises.com>

PhpMyAdmin 3.2.0.1 and 3.2.2.1
PHP 5.3.0
Apache 1.3.34
MySQL 5.1.36

I installed the latest version back a couple months ago and noticed that
when browsing a table I no longer had a check box, edit or delete button
next to each row. This box is a development box so I was not concerned, but
we are going into production with this newer configuration soon and now I
have to fix it...

I read several posts in other forums and have not as of yet found a
solution.

1. I have tried building a table with just one field and the check box and
buttons are there, add a field and they go away.
2. I have tried adding a primary key to the table with no results
3. I have tried adding $cfg['ModifyDeleteAtLeft'] = 'true'; to the
config.inc.php file

Maybe I am missing something.

Any help would be great!

Thanks!

Corey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091013/d92e963c/attachment.html>

From hans at cyberxdesigns.com  Tue Oct 13 20:24:31 2009
From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans C. Kaspersetz)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:24:31 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] Google AdManager
Message-ID: <014601ca4c64$b47d46b0$1d77d410$@com>

If there is anyone fluent in Google AdManager and AdSense on the list,
please contact me off list.  We have been dealing with a problem for nearly
a week, we are in significant pain and need some help.

Warmest regards,
Hans K

P.S. I know it is off topic, so I appologize now.



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Oct 13 22:27:37 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:27:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091014022737.GA15937@panix.com>

Hi:

Pardon me for not reading the whole thread, but everything you need to 
know is in "Legal Guide for Starting & Running a Small Business" 
published by Nolo Press.
http://www.nolo.com/products/legal-guide-for-starting-&-running-a-small-business-RUNS.html;jsessionid=2899501B574368A8B0214AEF173E0621.jvm1

Nolo has a great website too, so some of your questions may be answered 
there already.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From ramons at gmx.net  Wed Oct 14 07:12:09 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 07:12:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PhpMyAdmin 3.2.0.1 - 3.2.2.1
In-Reply-To: <C6FA5572.75CD1%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
References: <C6FA5572.75CD1%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
Message-ID: <4AD5B209.9050701@gmx.net>

Corey Fogarty wrote:
> Maybe I am missing something.
> 
> Any help would be great!

I used to use phpmyadmin and found it to be, well, horrible. I switched to the 
GUI tools that MySQL offers and found those to be OK, not great, but most of 
the time they work fine. The MySQL client from Enginsite by Luckasoft is 
really nice, but it is not a free tool.
What exactly do you try to accomplish? Maybe there are other ways. I guess the 
phpmyadmin manual and forums didn't turn up anything?

David


From rvarshavskaya at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 09:40:48 2009
From: rvarshavskaya at gmail.com (-rada-)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:40:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4810.1255460976.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.4810.1255460976.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <abe6f4630910140640w7a747eedp3367286ce36e31bc@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian

I have an LLC and have some thoughts for you.

1. For cost reasons, please consider a DBA (doing-business-as) instead of an
LLC. It's cheaper (by at least a couple grand) and the piece of paper you
get from the City Hall allows you to open a bank account just as well as the
LLC formation letter.

2. Generally, if there is a problem on a contract, you are not liable for
more than the contract is worth, unless you are willfully negligent or
overstated your professional capabilities AND caused major material damage
to the client. Given that you do web development (as opposed to, say, server
admin work) and that your work is incremental (the client signs off on
deliverables) I believe your liability issues are not worth the cost of
forming an LLC.

3. If you have an office, your landlord will force you to get general
liability insurance regardless of your business entity. It should cover you
for things such as clients falling down on a wet floor in your office.

4. From my own painful personal experience I can tell you that no amount of
paperwork, liability firewall, etc. helps when things go down between two
partners. Where it does help to have an LLC with two partners, is in
marriage. I "sold" my husband 99% of my LLC as a passive investor and this
saves us the whole self-employent tax thanks to a tax loophole (the legal
kind :).
Let me know if you want to know about this further.

5. Speaking of taxes, I can recommend my accountant:
medowscpa.com

6. Where you might need an LLC, is doing consulting corp-to-corp. As a
hypothetical situation, you may work for a client on a consulting basis
full-time for a year, and then sue them for back health insurance and taxes
claiming that since your work was essentially full-time, they owe you the
same empoyment benefits as their full-timers - whereas if you were an LLC,
this would not be an issue. However I've never had a company raise this fear
with me. They either don't know, or don't care. As long as you have a
registered business entity, everyone seems to be happy.

7. Do not waste your time looking into forming an LLC in another state
unless you are 100% virtual. If you do business in New York, you will have
to foreign-qualify, and the costs will be just the same if not more in some
cases.

Hope that helps!
Rada Varshavskaya

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 15:09, <talk-request at lists.nyphp.org> wrote:

> Send talk mailing list submissions to
>        talk at lists.nyphp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        talk-request at lists.nyphp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        talk-owner at lists.nyphp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. [OT] LLC and contract business (Brian O'Connor)
>   2. Re: [OT] LLC and contract business (Kristina Anderson)
>   3. Re: [OT] LLC and contract business (Eric Gewirtz)
>   4. Re: [OT] LLC and contract business (tedd)
>   5. Re: [OT] LLC and contract business (Michael B Allen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:25:32 -0400
> From: "Brian O'Connor" <gatzby3jr at gmail.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] LLC and contract business
> Message-ID:
>        <29da5d150910131025v648b31b2l68664ad3c650a17d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hey guys, I hope this isn't too off-topic, as I'm sure there's a few people
> here who are in the self-employment arena that can shed some advice.
>
> As a prefix, I'm going to assume no one is a lawyer and such won't hold you
> accountable (unless you otherwise say I can).
>
> I've been doing some side web development over the past 6 months with a
> designer and things are going great, and we seem to be getting clients at a
> great pace.  Obviously, the question is arising as to whether or not we
> should LLC our "group" and make things official and to prevent losing
> everything we own, and to look more professional.  However, I've heard
> conflicting things about what to do.
>
> I was always under the impression that LLC was the way to go, but now I
> might not be so sure.  What are the rules to getting an LLC?  Do I need an
> address in the state I registered the LLC in for it to work?  Does the LLC
> need an official bank account in order for the checks to be cashed / money
> to be transferred?
>  How do the taxes work if there's 2 members of the LLC?
>
> I'm very curious about how this all works!
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian O'Connor
> --
> Brian O'Connor
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091013/3810a288/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091014/19011a69/attachment.html>

From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 09:54:37 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:54:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PhpMyAdmin 3.2.0.1 - 3.2.2.1
In-Reply-To: <4AD5B209.9050701@gmx.net>
References: <C6FA5572.75CD1%corey@bmfenterprises.com>
	<4AD5B209.9050701@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <68de37340910140654m58272178xd108008876b47598@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:12 AM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
> Corey Fogarty wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I am missing something.
>>
>> Any help would be great!
>]

I am pretty sure using PMA on a production box is your first mistake.
Honestly, it's a crutch and you should be learning how to do whatever
it is that PMA does for you from the command line or a tool that's
actually secure.


From tedd at sperling.com  Wed Oct 14 11:36:59 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:36:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <abe6f4630910140640w7a747eedp3367286ce36e31bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4810.1255460976.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<abe6f4630910140640w7a747eedp3367286ce36e31bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240803c6fb9a754df0@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:40 AM -0400 10/14/09, -rada- wrote:
>Hi Brian
>
>I have an LLC and have some thoughts for you.
>
>1. For cost reasons, please consider a DBA (doing-business-as) 
>instead of an LLC. It's cheaper (by at least a couple grand) and the 
>piece of paper you get from the City Hall allows you to open a bank 
>account just as well as the LLC formation letter.

A DBA doesn't protect you from anything. It only allows you to do 
simple things like banking. Whereas, incorporation is designed to 
protect you.

>2. Generally, if there is a problem on a contract, you are not 
>liable for more than the contract is worth, unless you are willfully 
>negligent or overstated your professional capabilities AND caused 
>major material damage to the client.

If you think your liabilities are limited to the amount of the 
contract, then you are woefully remise. Your education is lacking 
considerably with respect to liabilities. There are reasons for $1 
million coverages in errors and omissions insurances.

As far as "overstating your professional capabilities" -- I think 
offering advice like that is an example of how right you might think 
you are but how wrong you actually are. There is a difference and 
that can be exploited in court.

>Given that you do web development (as opposed to, say, server admin 
>work) and that your work is incremental (the client signs off on 
>deliverables) I believe your liability issues are not worth the cost 
>of forming an LLC.

Until they are!

Web development carries with it considerable risk. Let's say you do 
something dumb that reduces your client's raking in search engines? 
You don't think your client has a case against you for more in 
damages than what they contracted you for? Think again.

Plus, your client doesn't have to have any proof whatsoever to take 
you to court. To defend yourself can easily run $20k -- been there, 
done that!

Brian -- talk to an attorney and not this list! You won't find much 
worthwhile help here.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 12:45:43 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:45:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c6fb9a754df0@192.168.1.102>
References: <mailman.4810.1255460976.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<abe6f4630910140640w7a747eedp3367286ce36e31bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240803c6fb9a754df0@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <330532b60910140945t2ab645dtfbd1c7caa110442b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:36 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
> Plus, your client doesn't have to have any proof whatsoever to take you to
> court. To defend yourself can easily run $20k -- been there, done that!
>
> Brian -- talk to an attorney and not this list! You won't find much
> worthwhile help here.

++

All I can add of value is that I've learned from painful, recent
experience that a contract is not worth the paper it is written on
unless is has a value in the six-figure range, because it will need to
be that valuable before it is worth going to court over.

Court fights can take YEARS, and will easily exceed the value of the
contract you're fighting over.

I didn't learn this until after I had consulted with an attorney, and
that was right before going to court.

-- Mitch


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Wed Oct 14 13:01:35 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:01:35 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
Message-ID: <1255539695.21215@coral.he.net>



> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:36 AM, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
> > Plus, your client doesn't have to have any proof whatsoever to take 
you to
> > court. To defend yourself can easily run $20k -- been there, done 
that!
> >
> > Brian -- talk to an attorney and not this list! You won't find much
> > worthwhile help here.
> 
> ++
> 
> All I can add of value is that I've learned from painful, recent
> experience that a contract is not worth the paper it is written on
> unless is has a value in the six-figure range, because it will need to
> be that valuable before it is worth going to court over.
> 
> Court fights can take YEARS, and will easily exceed the value of the
> contract you're fighting over.
> 
> I didn't learn this until after I had consulted with an attorney, and
> that was right before going to court.
> 
> -- Mitch
> '

So true.  Unless the total value is less than $5,000 (in NYS that's the 
small claims court limit), or over  $75,000 (because if it's not, good 
luck finding an attorney who will come out of their torpor long enough 
to take your call)...basically with the way things are, you're out of 
luck.  

So really a smart thing to do with anyone you don't trust (aside from 
not working for them) is to keep things in increments of $5,000 or less 
if possible...

Kristina


From tedd at sperling.com  Wed Oct 14 14:42:38 2009
From: tedd at sperling.com (tedd)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:42:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <1255539695.21215@coral.he.net>
References: <1255539695.21215@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <p06240803c6fbc8b32474@[192.168.1.102]>

At 10:01 AM -0700 10/14/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>  >So true.  Unless the total value is less than $5,000 (in NYS that's the
>small claims court limit), or over  $75,000 (because if it's not, good
>luck finding an attorney who will come out of their torpor long enough
>to take your call)...basically with the way things are, you're out of
>luck. 
>
>So really a smart thing to do with anyone you don't trust (aside from
>not working for them) is to keep things in increments of $5,000 or less
>if possible...
>
>Kristina


That's really a great way to handle the money your client is going to 
pay you In-State. In other words, keep the amount regarding the 
current project below the small claims court threshold -- check your 
own State for limits.

The problem that most of us have, or at least me, is that the 
majority of my clients are out of State (some out of country). I 
seldom have recourse in small claims court. And even if I do win 
venue, then there's the matter of collection. While the court may 
award you the right to collect, it doesn't guarantee that you will 
collect or even help you find where their money is. Most people think 
that when you win that the court somehow gives you a check, but that 
is far from the truth. You have to do the collection yourself OR hire 
someone to collect for you, which can be very expensive.

Cheers,

tedd

PS: I had to look up "torpor" -- good word.

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 16:59:53 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:59:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>

I hope there is an easy answer to this:

I am using a remote XML service, that about 1 in 100 times returns XML
with invalid UTF-8 bytes.  I don't have any control over the remote
service, but simpleXML pukes when I pass malformed UTF-8 to it.  Does
anyone know of a simple way to cleanup bad UTF-8 bytes, e.g. replace
the invalid bytes with a '?'.

Rgds,
John Campbell


From dorgan at donaldorgan.com  Sat Oct 17 17:04:21 2009
From: dorgan at donaldorgan.com (Donald J. Organ IV)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:04:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25116766.991255813461373.JavaMail.root@localhost>

a simple str_replace can replace the invalid characters..but you have to know what they are first.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Campbell" <jcampbell1 at gmail.com>
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 4:59:53 PM
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8

I hope there is an easy answer to this:

I am using a remote XML service, that about 1 in 100 times returns XML
with invalid UTF-8 bytes.  I don't have any control over the remote
service, but simpleXML pukes when I pass malformed UTF-8 to it.  Does
anyone know of a simple way to cleanup bad UTF-8 bytes, e.g. replace
the invalid bytes with a '?'.

Rgds,
John Campbell
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

From anoland at indigente.net  Sat Oct 17 17:10:08 2009
From: anoland at indigente.net (Adrian Noland)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:10:08 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
In-Reply-To: <25116766.991255813461373.JavaMail.root@localhost>
References: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com> 
	<25116766.991255813461373.JavaMail.root@localhost>
Message-ID: <1d8a0e930910171410t78c634f1ufa4377073ad6de23@mail.gmail.com>

I have this handy function I pulled from somewhere else. Does it help?

Apologies if the actual characters don't come across in the email.

    /**
     * This function was created to scrub additional html entities that are
not in the PHP get_html_translation_table
     * Currently bug #34577 in the bugs.php.net database.
     * a1 is a list of current html entities that are commonly appearing in
the listing description that are not escaped
     * a2 is most of the entities to either an accepted format, correct
html-entity, or with a blank space
     *
     * @param string $string string to scrub
     * @return string $string clean string
     */
    public static function xmlStringScrub($string) {
        $a1 = array("?","?","?","?", "?","?", "?", "?", "?", "?",
"?","?","?","?","?", "?", "?");
        $a2 = array(".","-","&bull;","", "'","'", '"', '"', "-", "-", ",",
"^",",","","&euro;", "&reg;", "&trade;");
        $string = htmlentities($string, ENT_QUOTES);
        $string = str_replace($a1, $a2, $string);
        $string = utf8_encode($string);
        return $string;
    }
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091017/23d5418b/attachment.html>

From fgabrieli at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 22:19:32 2009
From: fgabrieli at gmail.com (Fernando Gabrieli)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:19:32 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be1d525a0910171919q357ada72oc76331e4764b121a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, i believe php.net/mb_convert_encoding will use "?" or just avoid
printing a character when it can't convert. There's also php.net/iconv

On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:59 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I hope there is an easy answer to this:
>
> I am using a remote XML service, that about 1 in 100 times returns XML
> with invalid UTF-8 bytes.  I don't have any control over the remote
> service, but simpleXML pukes when I pass malformed UTF-8 to it.  Does
> anyone know of a simple way to cleanup bad UTF-8 bytes, e.g. replace
> the invalid bytes with a '?'.
>
> Rgds,
> John Campbell
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091017/9fdfba65/attachment.html>

From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Sun Oct 18 20:50:30 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:50:30 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
Message-ID: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Who here is happy with their current development machine?  Would you 
care to share your hardware specs?

I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little 
more snap.  Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped 
prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.

For context: This is for full-time web app development primarily in PHP, 
running some flavor of Linux.  Essentially no graphic design work at 
all.  Desktop or laptop, I'm indifferent. 

For the most part I've been fine with my current setup, but I recently 
started using a framework which, for all I can do to it, takes 10 and 15 
seconds to render a page on this machine. I've finally decided just to 
throw hardware at it.  Page-load times are unnoticeable on my rented 
hosting servers, so I can't really blame the framework.  On this 
machine, when I'm loading pages all day trying "this way" or "that way", 
those 15-second page loads add up pretty fast.

I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's 
machine.  At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than 
vendors who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.

Thanks,
Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From john at coggeshall.org  Sun Oct 18 20:53:36 2009
From: john at coggeshall.org (John Coggeshall)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:53:36 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <1ae19b080910181753p47ac2c1dm7d55ab11bd319ff4@mail.gmail.com>

I always give my teams top line hardware. Typically a MBP with at least 2gb
of Ram. We do our dev against VMs using Fusion and Studio (or whatever) as
the host IDE through VMware shared folders. It keeps the host clean, allows
us to be flexible, and whatever you spend in hardware/software is always
made up in productivity

John

On Oct 18, 2009 5:50 PM, "Allen Shaw" <allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com>
wrote:

Who here is happy with their current development machine?  Would you care to
share your hardware specs?

I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little
more snap.  Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped
prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.

For context: This is for full-time web app development primarily in PHP,
running some flavor of Linux.  Essentially no graphic design work at all.
 Desktop or laptop, I'm indifferent.
For the most part I've been fine with my current setup, but I recently
started using a framework which, for all I can do to it, takes 10 and 15
seconds to render a page on this machine. I've finally decided just to throw
hardware at it.  Page-load times are unnoticeable on my rented hosting
servers, so I can't really blame the framework.  On this machine, when I'm
loading pages all day trying "this way" or "that way", those 15-second page
loads add up pretty fast.

I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's machine.
 At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.

Thanks,
Allen

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091018/492737dc/attachment.html>

From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 20:58:22 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:58:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340910181758o678c2760i944bb22a5c996c52@mail.gmail.com>

I'd personally spend $400 or $500 of that budget on two nice, large
21" or larger monitors and then build a "budget" PC.  With the
remaining $500 or so, you can put together a decent quad core system:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5226067&CatId=333
+ 2 of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009157
you'd spend well less than a thousand dollars and have a pretty decent
system.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
> Who here is happy with their current development machine? ?Would you care to
> share your hardware specs?
>
> I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little
> more snap. ?Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped
> prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.
>
> For context: This is for full-time web app development primarily in PHP,
> running some flavor of Linux. ?Essentially no graphic design work at all.
> ?Desktop or laptop, I'm indifferent.
> For the most part I've been fine with my current setup, but I recently
> started using a framework which, for all I can do to it, takes 10 and 15
> seconds to render a page on this machine. I've finally decided just to throw
> hardware at it. ?Page-load times are unnoticeable on my rented hosting
> servers, so I can't really blame the framework. ?On this machine, when I'm
> loading pages all day trying "this way" or "that way", those 15-second page
> loads add up pretty fast.
>
> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's machine.
> ?At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>
> Thanks,
> Allen
>
> --
> Allen Shaw
> TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com
>
> "Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From kkrutoi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 21:11:02 2009
From: kkrutoi at gmail.com (Konstantin K)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:11:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
Message-ID: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,


I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and run
various services on it like apache and procmail...

I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
*need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....

 Any suggestions for this?

I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed -
they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?

thanks,
Konstantin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091018/7cd4a5eb/attachment.html>

From lists at zaunere.com  Sun Oct 18 21:15:49 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:15:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <06ab01ca5059$b203def0$160b9cd0$@com>

Hi,

> Who here is happy with their current development machine?  Would you
> care to share your hardware specs?

I got a new system last year (wha, this year flew by).  Basically a Dell
desktop with the Q6600 and 8gb RAM.  I had 4gb RAM originally which was
fine, but later upgraded so that I could do more VM stuff (VMs really are
key these days, I'll admit).  I run Windows 2008 Server Workstation, and
soon to be Windows 7 (Win 7 is on my laptop for quite a while and I do think
they really got it right this time).

> I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little
> more snap.  Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped
> prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.

My desktop system did come in under $1000 but I opted for the 22inch
monitors and a dualy video card, which put it at about $1300 at the time
(Dec 2008).

> For context: This is for full-time web app development primarily in PHP,
> running some flavor of Linux.  Essentially no graphic design work at
> all.  Desktop or laptop, I'm indifferent.

So for a long time I used only a laptop for development/everything,
considering that the specs between desktops and laptops were basically
inconsequential.

I must say, though - desktop's today are something special in terms of
power/performance/etc.  And especially monitor real-estate and certainly
price.  What really switched me was that nearly all laptops are widescreen
these days.  I didn't like that and so tested a desktop again for real
development, and frankly haven't looked back.

Just to add - if you get a new laptop, get a SSD - huge difference no matter
what the benchmarks say.

> For the most part I've been fine with my current setup, but I recently
> started using a framework which, for all I can do to it, takes 10 and 15
> seconds to render a page on this machine. I've finally decided just to
> throw hardware at it.  Page-load times are unnoticeable on my rented
> hosting servers, so I can't really blame the framework.  On this
> machine, when I'm loading pages all day trying "this way" or "that
> way", those 15-second page loads add up pretty fast.
> 
> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's
> machine.  At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than
> vendors who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.

I'd get a nice desktop which is very reasonably priced these days.
Photoshop/AI/etc work very well on these desktops too, unless you're a
professional graphics person, so it serves double purposes.  And with the
monitor real-estate, I'm frankly a bit embarrassed that I used a laptop for
so long :)

I basically use my laptop to remote desktop in when I need to, and for basic
code hacking with Ultraedit on the laptop (Eclipse/etc remain on my desktop
but I can also always development if needed from my laptop).

H




From oorza2k5 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 21:22:07 2009
From: oorza2k5 at gmail.com (Eddie Drapkin)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:22:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68de37340910181822o283ed1d8k8289dfd544d08e96@mail.gmail.com>

www.virtualbox.org

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
>
> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and?ssh to it, and run
> various services on it like?apache and procmail...
>
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
> *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>
> Any suggestions for this?
>
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed -
> they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?
>
> thanks,
> Konstantin
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From mutazmusa at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 21:23:59 2009
From: mutazmusa at gmail.com (Mutaz Musa)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:23:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <602c8ac0910181823j9e73015y2a066371251ea988@mail.gmail.com>

Check out VirtualBox, opensource and corporate backed (Sun Microsystems):

http://www.virtualbox.org/

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
>
> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and run
> various services on it like apache and procmail...
>
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
> *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>
>  Any suggestions for this?
>
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed -
> they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?
>
> thanks,
> Konstantin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091018/69f65754/attachment.html>

From lists at zaunere.com  Sun Oct 18 21:25:49 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:25:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06b501ca505b$1726b860$45742920$@com>

Hi,

> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on
> my windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and
> run various services on it like apache and procmail...
> 
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but
> I *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
> 
> Any suggestions for this?
> 
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I
> needed - they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?

Yes, VMWare is conveniently confusing for their free products.  Hmm... it
seems to have gotten worse.  Perhaps:

http://downloads.vmware.com/d/

And then the Download VMware ESXi free link in the right column.  Basically,
anything they offer for free will do what you need for basic stuff.

There's also any of the free stuff from these:

http://www.xen.org/
http://www.virtualbox.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Virtual_PC

End of the day, for desktop purposes these are all about the same.  Just dig
until you find something without a trial license.

H




From ioplex at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 21:34:15 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910181834o7088c5bbp10d57c9bc5fbe97e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
>
> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and?ssh to it, and run
> various services on it like?apache and procmail...
>
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
> *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>
> Any suggestions for this?
>
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed -
> they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?

VMWare have a number of different free and non-free things but what
you want is called "VMWare Server". Just Google for "VMWare Server
download" and it should be fairly obvious as to what to do from there.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
Java Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/


From kkrutoi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 21:41:52 2009
From: kkrutoi at gmail.com (Konstantin K)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:41:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7173a2fc0910181841h3738e933vccbf05ead439ad28@mail.gmail.com>

you guys are great.
thanks for the quick responses and good suggestions!!

Konstantin

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
>
> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and run
> various services on it like apache and procmail...
>
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
> *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>
>  Any suggestions for this?
>
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed -
> they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?
>
> thanks,
> Konstantin
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091018/54a8da37/attachment.html>

From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Oct 18 21:54:52 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:54:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADBC6EC.9010501@gmx.net>

Konstantin K wrote:
> Hi guys,
>  
>  
> I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my 
> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and run 
> various services on it like apache and procmail...
>  
> I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but 
> I *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>  
> Any suggestions for this?
>  
> I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed 
> - they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?
>  

Well, you can use VMWare Server, but unless you have beefy machine it will be 
slow (as anything from VMWare). I use VMWare Server at work and while it is of 
the typical not so great VMWare quality it works for me. You might want to 
take a look as well at VirtualBox. Other than that, Microsoft's VirtualPC is 
another option, but from my experience VPC is at the bottom of the trash can 
when it comes for desktop virtualization.

David


No virus found in this outgoing message
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.13500).
http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/


From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Oct 18 21:56:36 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:56:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <06b501ca505b$1726b860$45742920$@com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<06b501ca505b$1726b860$45742920$@com>
Message-ID: <4ADBC754.5030601@gmx.net>

Hans Zaunere wrote:
> And then the Download VMware ESXi free link in the right column.  Basically,
> anything they offer for free will do what you need for basic stuff.

ESXi as well as ESX are bare metal hypervisors, so you cannot run them on top 
of Windope. If you look for bare metal, use Citrix. It wipes the floor with 
VMWare.

David


No virus found in this outgoing message
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.13500).
http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/


From ioplex at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 23:04:35 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:04:35 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <4ADBC6EC.9010501@gmx.net>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ADBC6EC.9010501@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910182004q1fc8dcf2s972542d96f7428ea@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:54 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
> Konstantin K wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>> ??I'd like a free tool that allows me to run a linux virtual machine on my
>> windows laptop so I can do development on it, ftp and ssh to it, and run
>> various services on it like apache and procmail...
>> ?I know these tools (apache and procmail) are available for windows, but I
>> *need* a linux instance on my laptop as a virtual machine....
>> ?Any suggestions for this?
>> ?I went to the VMWare site and couldn't figure out which product I needed
>> - they seem to have 4000 products...Any ideas?
>>
>
> Well, you can use VMWare Server, but unless you have beefy machine it will
> be slow (as anything from VMWare). I use VMWare Server at work and while it
> is of the typical not so great VMWare quality it works for me. You might
> want to take a look as well at VirtualBox. Other than that, Microsoft's
> VirtualPC is another option, but from my experience VPC is at the bottom of
> the trash can when it comes for desktop virtualization.

That is not my experience. I have 4-5 Windows and Linux guests running
at the same time in VMWare Server on cheap desktop grade boxes running
Linux. As long as you have a lot of memory (4 GB is good) and you
install VMWare Tools on the Windows guests, VMWare Server performs
just fine.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
Java Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/


From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Oct 19 07:10:03 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:10:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <78c6bd860910182004q1fc8dcf2s972542d96f7428ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>	<4ADBC6EC.9010501@gmx.net>
	<78c6bd860910182004q1fc8dcf2s972542d96f7428ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC490B.5000101@gmx.net>

Michael B Allen wrote:
> 
> That is not my experience. I have 4-5 Windows and Linux guests running
> at the same time in VMWare Server on cheap desktop grade boxes running
> Linux. As long as you have a lot of memory (4 GB is good) and you
> install VMWare Tools on the Windows guests, VMWare Server performs
> just fine.


I was comparing it to Citrix, which is easily a 1/3rd faster on the same 
hardware. I use VMWare Server and it works, I like especially that I can 
connect to VMs and manage the system using a browser, but the quality of the 
admin interface is IMHO plain horrible like all the other admin tool from 
VMWare. Slow and crashy. For example on ESX I use third party tools for the 
most important tasks such as file copying. At work we decided to dicth ESX and 
go with Citrix, much faster and costs less. And yes, without VMWare tools the 
VMs are useless.
Since the request was for 'laptop' virtualization I'd give VirtualBox a try 
first. If that doesn't pan out try VMWare Server.

David


No virus found in this outgoing message
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.13500).
http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/


From dcech at phpwerx.net  Mon Oct 19 07:32:15 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:32:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC4E3F.4070600@phpwerx.net>

John Campbell wrote:
> I am using a remote XML service, that about 1 in 100 times returns XML
> with invalid UTF-8 bytes.  I don't have any control over the remote
> service, but simpleXML pukes when I pass malformed UTF-8 to it.  Does
> anyone know of a simple way to cleanup bad UTF-8 bytes, e.g. replace
> the invalid bytes with a '?'.

Try:

$text = @iconv('UTF-8','UTF-8//TRANSLIT',$text);

Dan


From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Oct 19 08:28:56 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:28:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net>


Ive been very happy with a dual-core box I built based on a Shuttle 
barebones kit (shuttle.com). They are very compact but capable machines.

I think being able to run virtual machines is important for web developers 
so you'll want a box with a decent amount of RAM, maybe 4Gb. Also, two 
monitors is very useful, so maybe look at cards with dual-outputs.

Remember disk is cheap. Memory is cheap. So if you're buying a prebuilt 
box, make sure the diak and memory upgrades aren't a tota' rip. (If they 
are and you still wanna buy, then buy a minimal spec and upgrade 
yourself).


-- 
Aj.



From sailer at bnl.gov  Mon Oct 19 08:52:36 2009
From: sailer at bnl.gov (Tim Sailer)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:52:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] virtualization options...
In-Reply-To: <68de37340910181822o283ed1d8k8289dfd544d08e96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7173a2fc0910181811s7f36b2d0y510baef1ee9b13ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<68de37340910181822o283ed1d8k8289dfd544d08e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091019125236.GA9661@bnl.gov>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 09:22:07PM -0400, Eddie Drapkin wrote:
> www.virtualbox.org

+1 on virtualbox. Although I am VMWare certified and use all their products,
for my own development platform on my laptop, I use virtualbox. It just works.
And, you can push images from virtualbox back and forth with VMWare when you
have a working environment.

Tim



From pjlists at pobox.com  Mon Oct 19 09:20:51 2009
From: pjlists at pobox.com (=?UTF-8?B?UC4gSnUgKOacsea8oueShyk=?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:20:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <7fb2405d0910190620q4471f2ffqc048ebddeeb6a5af@mail.gmail.com>

Buy a MacBook/MacBook Pro You will love it. I finally switched after
keeping an eye on them for many yrs. Should've switched sooner! You
get the best of both geek and user-friendly app worlds. I use
Microsoft Office for office tasks, and terminal shell to login to
remote servers or load up git source trees locally.

PJ

On 10/19/09, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>
> Ive been very happy with a dual-core box I built based on a Shuttle
> barebones kit (shuttle.com). They are very compact but capable machines.
>
> I think being able to run virtual machines is important for web developers
> so you'll want a box with a decent amount of RAM, maybe 4Gb. Also, two
> monitors is very useful, so maybe look at cards with dual-outputs.
>
> Remember disk is cheap. Memory is cheap. So if you're buying a prebuilt
> box, make sure the diak and memory upgrades aren't a tota' rip. (If they
> are and you still wanna buy, then buy a minimal spec and upgrade
> yourself).
>
>
> --
> Aj.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


-- 
Patricia Ju
phj at pobox.com
+1-646-717-3871

success = fn(perseverance)


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 09:40:18 2009
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:40:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <7fb2405d0910190620q4471f2ffqc048ebddeeb6a5af@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
	<7fb2405d0910190620q4471f2ffqc048ebddeeb6a5af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29da5d150910190640w74017944xb9f602f19279ef08@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in the middle of looking for a new laptop to go along nicely with web
development right now, so I figure I'd share my 2 cents.

Right now, I have a desktop with 2 22" widescreen monitors, but am looking
for a laptop to complement it.

In my opinion, with web development (and programming in general) screen
space is king.  Web development _USUALLY_ doesn't take that much CPU power,
but you don't want to be lagging behind when you want to get work done, so
you can't get a really old processor.  I think the ideal solution is to get
a portable laptop (13"/15" screen, lightweight) that has a video out of some
sort (whether it be HDMI/VGA/DVI).  This way, you get the luxury of
portability (client meetings, airports/planes, trains, coffee shops), and
when you want to work at home, you can hook up a nice 24" monitor, full
sized keyboard / mouse and work as if you're on a good desktop.  In
addition, you don't have 2 separate computers where you have to worry about
file syncing (I know, I know, remote repositories - but that's not as easy
as it sounds sometimes).

The trickiest part in taking this route is finding a laptop that will
support the video out well enough on linux to hook up an external screen,
which was the problem with my old laptop (I hate SiS).

I'm currently looking at the HP Pavilion dm3z which was just released, and
am probably just going to hope and pray that Ubuntu works on it because no
one seems to have reviewed it yet.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:20 AM, P. Ju (???) <pjlists at pobox.com> wrote:

> Buy a MacBook/MacBook Pro You will love it. I finally switched after
> keeping an eye on them for many yrs. Should've switched sooner! You
> get the best of both geek and user-friendly app worlds. I use
> Microsoft Office for office tasks, and terminal shell to login to
> remote servers or load up git source trees locally.
>
> PJ
>
> On 10/19/09, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ive been very happy with a dual-core box I built based on a Shuttle
> > barebones kit (shuttle.com). They are very compact but capable machines.
> >
> > I think being able to run virtual machines is important for web
> developers
> > so you'll want a box with a decent amount of RAM, maybe 4Gb. Also, two
> > monitors is very useful, so maybe look at cards with dual-outputs.
> >
> > Remember disk is cheap. Memory is cheap. So if you're buying a prebuilt
> > box, make sure the diak and memory upgrades aren't a tota' rip. (If they
> > are and you still wanna buy, then buy a minimal spec and upgrade
> > yourself).
> >
> >
> > --
> > Aj.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >
>
>
> --
> Patricia Ju
> phj at pobox.com
> +1-646-717-3871
>
> success = fn(perseverance)
>  _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Brian O'Connor
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091019/34a22527/attachment.html>

From dcech at phpwerx.net  Mon Oct 19 10:00:38 2009
From: dcech at phpwerx.net (Dan Cech)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:00:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910190640w74017944xb9f602f19279ef08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net>	<7fb2405d0910190620q4471f2ffqc048ebddeeb6a5af@mail.gmail.com>
	<29da5d150910190640w74017944xb9f602f19279ef08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC7106.6090109@phpwerx.net>

Brian O'Connor wrote:
> I think the ideal solution is to get
> a portable laptop (13"/15" screen, lightweight) that has a video out of some
> sort (whether it be HDMI/VGA/DVI).  This way, you get the luxury of
> portability (client meetings, airports/planes, trains, coffee shops), and
> when you want to work at home, you can hook up a nice 24" monitor, full
> sized keyboard / mouse and work as if you're on a good desktop.  In
> addition, you don't have 2 separate computers where you have to worry about
> file syncing (I know, I know, remote repositories - but that's not as easy
> as it sounds sometimes).

I went down this road almost 6 years ago and haven't looked back.
Having all my tools and files at my fingertips any time makes life so
much easier.  Make sure you have a good backup system in place though!

> The trickiest part in taking this route is finding a laptop that will
> support the video out well enough on linux to hook up an external screen,
> which was the problem with my old laptop (I hate SiS).

I'm typing this on a 3-year-old Lenovo Thinkpad z61m, which is driving 2
Samsung 2343 23" 2048x1152 LCDs (great monitors, love the extra real
estate vs a regular 1920x1080) via an OEM docking station (one DVI & one
VGA).

I just got a new lenovo t400s & docking station which will drive them
both via DVI (there is a noticeable difference vs VGA).  So far I'm very
impressed with the machine, and it is crazy light for a 14" at 3.95lbs.

A good dock is key, mine has power, 2 monitors, speakers, keyboard,
webcam, network, etc plugged in all the time so a laptop without a dock
isn't an option for me.  A second power cord is also huge (the lenovo
docks come with one) so you can keep one in the laptop bag, that way you
never forget it.

Check the specs carefully, some laptops & docks (like the dell latitude
z) don't even support 1 high-resolution screen, let alone 2.

Dan


From rvarshavskaya at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 10:23:23 2009
From: rvarshavskaya at gmail.com (-rada-)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:23:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5693.1255915440.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.5693.1255915440.9543.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <abe6f4630910190723w43af4783sc31d5ec643440656@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Allen

Two must-read's from Linus Torvalds and Jeff Atwood about SSD's:

http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2008/10/so-i-got-one-of-new-intel-ssds.html
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001304.html

That's my next upgrade!

Rada Varshavskaya


On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 21:24, <talk-request at lists.nyphp.org> wrote:

>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:50:30 -0500
> From: Allen Shaw <allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
> Message-ID: <4ADBB7D6.8070202 at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Who here is happy with their current development machine?  Would you
> care to share your hardware specs?
>
> I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little
> more snap.  Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped
> prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.
>
> For context: This is for full-time web app development primarily in PHP,
> running some flavor of Linux.  Essentially no graphic design work at
> all.  Desktop or laptop, I'm indifferent.
>
> For the most part I've been fine with my current setup, but I recently
> started using a framework which, for all I can do to it, takes 10 and 15
> seconds to render a page on this machine. I've finally decided just to
> throw hardware at it.  Page-load times are unnoticeable on my rented
> hosting servers, so I can't really blame the framework.  On this
> machine, when I'm loading pages all day trying "this way" or "that way",
> those 15-second page loads add up pretty fast.
>
> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's
> machine.  At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than
> vendors who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>
> Thanks,
> Allen
>
> --
> Allen Shaw
> TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com
>
> "Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091019/f8ed467e/attachment.html>

From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 10:55:53 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:55:53 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] SimpleXML - UTF8
In-Reply-To: <4ADC4E3F.4070600@phpwerx.net>
References: <8f0676b40910171359m13e0af9fi306c352da8ebb255@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ADC4E3F.4070600@phpwerx.net>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910190755g2a76c273yd5752287c829f813@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Dan Cech <dcech at phpwerx.net> wrote:
> Try:
>
> $text = @iconv('UTF-8','UTF-8//TRANSLIT',$text);

Thanks Dan,

I knew there had to be something simple.

It looks like mb_convert_encoding($txt,'UTF-8','UTF-8') will work
similarly, but just deletes the offending bytes.

Regards,
John Campbell


From cmerlo at ncc.edu  Mon Oct 19 11:33:32 2009
From: cmerlo at ncc.edu (Christopher R. Merlo)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:33:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <29da5d150910190640w74017944xb9f602f19279ef08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910190821170.6456-100000@bitblit.net> 
	<7fb2405d0910190620q4471f2ffqc048ebddeeb6a5af@mail.gmail.com> 
	<29da5d150910190640w74017944xb9f602f19279ef08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <946586480910190833s7a242ec9p93805aa3f46f1dcd@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Brian O'Connor <gatzby3jr at gmail.com> wrote:


> [Buy a laptop.]  This way, you get the luxury of portability ...  In
> addition, you don't have 2 separate computers where you have to worry about
> file syncing (I know, I know, remote repositories - but that's not as easy
> as it sounds sometimes).
>

Since this came up, I thought I'd share what I'm doing, since it seems to
work well for me.  Note: I am not a professional web developer, but I do
play one at the front of the classroom.

I have two servers at school -- one for development and one for production.
Both Debian (although I am running testing on the dev box and stable on the
prod box).  I do my development by using MacFusion (
http://www.macfusionapp.org/) to mount my $HOME/public_html directory from
the testing box onto my MacBook Pro (or my iMac, if I'm at home), and then
run Aptana Studio to develop.  Aptana thinks it's working with files on a
local drive, so it doesn't have to do anything fancy -- and neither did I to
get it set up.  So, wherever I am -- home, school, Panera, hotel -- I can
mount that dev box locally and play with the files.

To push changes to production, I just scp them over to the production
machine.

As far as keeping everything else in sync, I have been making heavy use of
my free accounts on both Evernote (http://www.evernote.com/) and Dropbox (
http://www.getdropbox.com/), and they have been life savers.

As far as a web development machine (oh yeah, the original thread!), I would
also recommend a Mac with lots of RAM, because then, in the host OS and two
VMs, you can now test pretty much every browser people will conceivably use
to visit your site.

Just my $0.02,
-c
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091019/663d1ea7/attachment.html>

From ioplex at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 12:51:12 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:51:12 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910190951u74061488k8b39d7b18951dc56@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
> Who here is happy with their current development machine? ?Would you care to
> share your hardware specs?
>
> I'm looking to upgrade my 7-year old desktop for something with a little
> more snap. ?Hopefully under $1000, but it's been ages since I shopped
> prices, so clue me in if I'm naive.

Hi Allen,

Every year or so I just go to Best Buy and get a cheapo desktop with
gigabit ethernet and as much RAM as possible. You can probably find an
ASUS or ACER for $600, you don't pay shipping, you get instant
gratification and it's easy to take back if there's something wrong
with it. They're usually super ugly (like a chrome-plated Star Trek
shuttle craft) but the only technical concern I would have is Linux
hardware support. Sometimes the cheapo machines have very new and
unusual hardware that Linux doesn't quite support yet. But knowing
this I always just get something with an Intel chipset with everything
onboard. Meaning get Intel video, Intel network, Intel usb, etc. One
time I got a machine that didn't recognize the network card. It was
some obscure Realtek or some such. I had to download a driver form
their site and build it. Otherwise, the cheapo Best Buy machines have
always just worked great for me.

Incidentally I usually also try to get a 64 bit CPU with Intel VT or
AMD-V capability so that I can run 64 bit guests in VMWare Server.
This is important for testing all of the different flavors of OS. If
someone says your thing doesn't work on Vista SP-this with IE that,
then you can replicate that exactly without too much trouble.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/plexcel.html


From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:02:40 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:02:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
<allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's machine.
> ?At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.

I just got a new MacBook Pro today, and I gave my one year old MacBook
Pro to a co-worker. My new computer has a glossy display, and the
reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.  I am
okay with a white background, which makes the reflection go away, but
if you code on a black background, make sure you get a computer with a
matte display.

Regards,
John Campbell


From glenn310b at mac.com  Mon Oct 19 16:17:59 2009
From: glenn310b at mac.com (Glenn Powell)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:17:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>


On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:02 PM, John Campbell wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
> <allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
>> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's  
>> machine.
>>  At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than  
>> vendors
>> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>
> I just got a new MacBook Pro today, and I gave my one year old MacBook
> Pro to a co-worker. My new computer has a glossy display, and the
> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.  I am
> okay with a white background, which makes the reflection go away, but
> if you code on a black background, make sure you get a computer with a
> matte display.
>
> Regards,
> John Campbell

I also have a MacBook Pro. Same issue with the glossy screen.

I got the glossy because I thought it would be more durable...

Having said that, I really like the machine and I take my dev env.  
with me wherever I go.

A little off topic now...

Took me a day or 2 to get used to a white background.

Btw, I use vim,  and open white backgrounds for my dev, and use  
different
colors for ssh to  db servers, production web servers, etc.

I think it helps to avoid confusion and potential problems, especially  
when I'm tired.

Glenn

> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:32:51 2009
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:32:51 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com>

Get the cheapest Intel based, aluminum MacBook with an end-user
serviceable HD and RAM. Do not buy the white plastic MacBooks, they
chip and warp like crazy, I've owned 4 (3 companies + 1 for my
girlfriend) and every single one has warped or chipped in some way.
Throw in 4GB+ RAM and at least a 7200RPM HD, though you may opt for a
SSD. Buy an external monitor (24"+) and you're good to go.

Little off topic, if you do end up going with a laptop, I highly
recommend signing up for a backup service. Personally I use
https://www.backblaze.com/, and I couldn't be happier. Stolen or lost
laptops can be replaced, a few years worth of code can not.

- jake

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:02 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
> <allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
>> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's machine.
>> ?At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
>> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>
> I just got a new MacBook Pro today, and I gave my one year old MacBook
> Pro to a co-worker. My new computer has a glossy display, and the
> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal. ?I am
> okay with a white background, which makes the reflection go away, but
> if you code on a black background, make sure you get a computer with a
> matte display.
>
> Regards,
> John Campbell
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:49:42 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:49:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Get the cheapest Intel based, aluminum MacBook with an end-user
> serviceable HD and RAM. Do not buy the white plastic MacBooks, they
> chip and warp like crazy, I've owned 4 (3 companies + 1 for my
> girlfriend) and every single one has warped or chipped in some way.
> Throw in 4GB+ RAM and at least a 7200RPM HD, though you may opt for a
> SSD. Buy an external monitor (24"+) and you're good to go.
>
>
4GB RAM? Wow.

My workstation (Dell, Ubuntu) in this office where I am not officially a
programmer has 1GB and you know what? It strains to run Zend Studio and
Firefox at the same time. Groans and moans and lapses into a catatonic
state. I wonder what the real minimum specs are for ZendStudio.
-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/

The subtle source is clear and bright
The tributary streams flow through the darkness
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091019/2db606b3/attachment.html>

From 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:57:20 2009
From: 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com (inforequest)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:57:20 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <29059-29551@sneakemail.com>

Glenn Powell glenn310b-at-mac.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal group 
use| wrote:
>
> On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:02 PM, John Campbell wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
>> <allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
>>> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's 
>>> machine.
>>>  At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
>>> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>>
>> I just got a new MacBook Pro today, and I gave my one year old MacBook
>> Pro to a co-worker. My new computer has a glossy display, and the
>> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.  I am
>> okay with a white background, which makes the reflection go away, but
>> if you code on a black background, make sure you get a computer with a
>> matte display.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Campbell
>
> I also have a MacBook Pro. Same issue with the glossy screen.
>
> I got the glossy because I thought it would be more durable...
>
> Having said that, I really like the machine and I take my dev env. 
> with me wherever I go.
>
> A little off topic now...
>
> Took me a day or 2 to get used to a white background.
>
> Btw, I use vim,  and open white backgrounds for my dev, and use different
> colors for ssh to  db servers, production web servers, etc.
>
> I think it helps to avoid confusion and potential problems, especially 
> when I'm tired.
>
> Glenn
I carried a TP42p 15.4" xtra bright xtra high res sreen for years, and 
on the advice of others got a new one with 14" widescreen (T400). They 
said I'd appreciate carrying it around, 14" was enough, new screens are 
even brighter, etc.

Wrong on everything except for the brightness thing. New screen is 
awesome bright, high contrast, but of lower resolution and 14" wide 
screen sucks as a format. I carry it with an extended battery so it's no 
smaller than the old 15" anyway. I miss the old screen size every day.


Good part is I spent so little on the T400 I can buy another and still 
be well under the cost of my old t42p. Unfortunately, the old t42p was a 
real IBM (not a Lenovo) so it still works great... and my son won't need 
to inherit this t400 for a long time. I need another excuse to get 
another machine.




From chsnyder at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:04:19 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:04:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690910191404v126635e1i128bf6ba6b9ee713@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Mintz <vtbludgeon at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder what the real minimum specs are for ZendStudio.

Well, yeah. It's a big ball of Java, you need to have room for the jvm.

I know it's annoying when people say RAM is cheap, but RAM is pretty cheap.


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:48:59 2009
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:48:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com> 
	<721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610910191448k71c78b6i603028019f1dd5c6@mail.gmail.com>

4GB RAM is the minimum that I would recommend for any laptop, as this
is the sweet spot in most instances:

* Represents the maximum most laptop mobos will support.
* Most laptop mobos only support 2 sticks of RAM, which brings me to
my next point.
* 2GB DDR sticks offer the best $/GB ratio:

Compare:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010170381%201309139889&bop=And&ActiveSearchResult=True&Order=PRICE

to:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010170381%201309121118&name=4GB%20%282%20x%202GB%29

* In the past, you may have been able to argue that typical clients
would never hit the 4GB ceiling, just try developing using Eclipse,
open a couple of AJAX heavy sites in Firefox and spin up one or two
VMs, and BAM! you've maxed out your RAM.

- jake

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Mintz <vtbludgeon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Get the cheapest Intel based, aluminum MacBook with an end-user
>> serviceable HD and RAM. Do not buy the white plastic MacBooks, they
>> chip and warp like crazy, I've owned 4 (3 companies + 1 for my
>> girlfriend) and every single one has warped or chipped in some way.
>> Throw in 4GB+ RAM and at least a 7200RPM HD, though you may opt for a
>> SSD. Buy an external monitor (24"+) and you're good to go.
>>
>
> 4GB RAM? Wow.
>
> My workstation (Dell, Ubuntu) in this office where I am not officially a
> programmer has 1GB and you know what? It strains to run Zend Studio and
> Firefox at the same time. Groans and moans and lapses into a catatonic
> state. I wonder what the real minimum specs are for ZendStudio.
> --
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
>
> The subtle source is clear and bright
> The tributary streams flow through the darkness
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From ioplex at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 18:16:42 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:16:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Conditional Terminal Coloration (was developer's
	machine specs -- recomendations?)
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910191516y1194a2c2m1968e4c3f6f9250c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Glenn Powell <glenn310b at mac.com> wrote:
> A little off topic now...
>
> Took me a day or 2 to get used to a white background.
>
> Btw, I use vim, ?and open white backgrounds for my dev, and use different
> colors for ssh to ?db servers, production web servers, etc.
>
> I think it helps to avoid confusion and potential problems, especially when
> I'm tired.

I do exactly the same thing with xtermcontrol on Linux. In
/etc/profile.d/x.sh I have:

. /etc/xterm_colorize

where /etc/extern_colorize is:

BG=#111
FG=#ccc

BG_ROOT=#200
BG_MYUSERNAME=#002
FG_REMOTE=#cf8

if [ -x /usr/local/bin/xtermcontrol ]; then
        if [ -z "$XC_RESET" ]; then
                if [ -n "$SSH_CLIENT" -o -n "$SSH_CONNECTION" ]; then
                        FG=$FG_REMOTE
                fi
                case "$USER" in
                        'root')
                        BG=$BG_ROOT
                        ;;
                        'myusername')
                        BG=$BG_MYUSERNAME                        ;;
                esac
        fi

        xtermcontrol --bg $BG --fg $FG
fi

This changes the background color depending on who I'm logged in as
and it also independently changes the foreground color if I'm
connected remotely over SSH.

To reset the colors back, I have the following in ~/.bash_logout:

XC_RESET=1 . /etc/xterm_colorize

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
Java Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/


From ioplex at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 18:25:38 2009
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:25:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610910191448k71c78b6i603028019f1dd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<e065b8610910191332n44900ac9q7451bbafb0247e33@mail.gmail.com>
	<721f1cc50910191349x6ca32d21pf531dfe4b7fb3e3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<e065b8610910191448k71c78b6i603028019f1dd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78c6bd860910191525w1341b440wb6f08ce6c43245d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 4GB RAM is the minimum that I would recommend for any laptop, as this
> is the sweet spot in most instances:
>
> * Represents the maximum most laptop mobos will support.

The 4GB limitation is mostly do to the fact that that is the limit of
the 32 bit architecture. If you look at non-low-end 64 bit laptops,
they almost all go higher than 4GB.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory Integration
http://www.ioplex.com/plexcel.html


From gatzby3jr at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 21:35:20 2009
From: gatzby3jr at gmail.com (Brian O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:35:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c6fbc8b32474@192.168.1.102>
References: <1255539695.21215@coral.he.net>
	<p06240803c6fbc8b32474@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <29da5d150910191835i28a4963epd42b1165136945db@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the very informative replies, and sorry to reply so
late myself.

I always planned on talking to a lawyer, but I absolutely hate to go
into timed/paid meetings with someone when I don't have a clue about
what's going on. I wanted to get a better feeling for what I was
dealing with and figured people on the list could give me an idea of
what the standard was.

Thanks again,
Brian

On 10/14/09, tedd <tedd at sperling.com> wrote:
> At 10:01 AM -0700 10/14/09, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>  >So true.  Unless the total value is less than $5,000 (in NYS that's the
>>small claims court limit), or over  $75,000 (because if it's not, good
>>luck finding an attorney who will come out of their torpor long enough
>>to take your call)...basically with the way things are, you're out of
>>luck.
>>
>>So really a smart thing to do with anyone you don't trust (aside from
>>not working for them) is to keep things in increments of $5,000 or less
>>if possible...
>>
>>Kristina
>
>
> That's really a great way to handle the money your client is going to
> pay you In-State. In other words, keep the amount regarding the
> current project below the small claims court threshold -- check your
> own State for limits.
>
> The problem that most of us have, or at least me, is that the
> majority of my clients are out of State (some out of country). I
> seldom have recourse in small claims court. And even if I do win
> venue, then there's the matter of collection. While the court may
> award you the right to collect, it doesn't guarantee that you will
> collect or even help you find where their money is. Most people think
> that when you win that the court somehow gives you a check, but that
> is far from the truth. You have to do the collection yourself OR hire
> someone to collect for you, which can be very expensive.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
> PS: I had to look up "torpor" -- good word.
>
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Brian O'Connor


From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Oct 19 23:28:24 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910192321130.6456-100000@bitblit.net>

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, John Campbell wrote:

> My new computer has a glossy display, and the
> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.

Did you not expect that? Its the major complaint with the glossy Apple 
laptops... Im not sure but at some point Apple decided to ship all their 
low-end MacBooks with only glossy screens (no matte option). In fact, my 
old iBook had a better screen (until it was stolen).

Does anyone know of a good insurance provider for laptops? Being portable 
makes them so easy to steal...



-- 
Aj.



From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Oct 20 07:15:07 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:15:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910192321130.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910192321130.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <4ADD9BBB.2090505@gmx.net>

Ajai Khattri wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, John Campbell wrote:
> 
>> My new computer has a glossy display, and the
>> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.
> 
> Did you not expect that? Its the major complaint with the glossy Apple 
> laptops... Im not sure but at some point Apple decided to ship all their 
> low-end MacBooks with only glossy screens (no matte option). In fact, my 
> old iBook had a better screen (until it was stolen).

Making a matte finish is an extra step, means it costs more money. After all, 
Apple is nothing more than a publicly traded company that does very well with 
consumer electronics (and yea, they make some not so shabby computers as 
well). So anything that increases shareholder value while keeping people 
buying stuff is a good move. And maybe their spin doctors came up with an 
explanation why reflections on the screen are not a bug, but a feature.


> Does anyone know of a good insurance provider for laptops? Being portable 
> makes them so easy to steal...

You may want to check your renters or home owners insurance. They usually 
include an extra bucket for electronics and typically consider the inside of 
your car as part of the living space. Doesn't help when your laptop gets 
stolen at a customer's site, coffee shop, train, plane....
I'd contact insurance companies and ask. I am sure they sell you insurance for 
anything as long as you are willing to pay.


David


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 12:03:23 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:03:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADD9BBB.2090505@gmx.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910192321130.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
	<4ADD9BBB.2090505@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <c5949a380910200903q21010b65p26ddf4f59a0ee5fb@mail.gmail.com>

A MacBook is pretty much a gift from God and Steve Jobs. You can run the
world from Washington Square Park.  :-)

Apple Stock up now what 20X? over the last few year? BECAUSE it's machines
are mind blowing amazing. It's the most amazing development environment I've
ever used. I love the glossy display by the way.



On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:15 AM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

> Ajai Khattri wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, John Campbell wrote:
>>
>>  My new computer has a glossy display, and the
>>> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal.
>>>
>>
>> Did you not expect that? Its the major complaint with the glossy Apple
>> laptops... Im not sure but at some point Apple decided to ship all their
>> low-end MacBooks with only glossy screens (no matte option). In fact, my old
>> iBook had a better screen (until it was stolen).
>>
>
> Making a matte finish is an extra step, means it costs more money. After
> all, Apple is nothing more than a publicly traded company that does very
> well with consumer electronics (and yea, they make some not so shabby
> computers as well). So anything that increases shareholder value while
> keeping people buying stuff is a good move. And maybe their spin doctors
> came up with an explanation why reflections on the screen are not a bug, but
> a feature.
>
>
>  Does anyone know of a good insurance provider for laptops? Being portable
>> makes them so easy to steal...
>>
>
> You may want to check your renters or home owners insurance. They usually
> include an extra bucket for electronics and typically consider the inside of
> your car as part of the living space. Doesn't help when your laptop gets
> stolen at a customer's site, coffee shop, train, plane....
> I'd contact insurance companies and ask. I am sure they sell you insurance
> for anything as long as you are willing to pay.
>
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091020/4bfe8b3d/attachment.html>

From chsnyder at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 12:12:42 2009
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:12:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <c5949a380910200903q21010b65p26ddf4f59a0ee5fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910192321130.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
	<4ADD9BBB.2090505@gmx.net>
	<c5949a380910200903q21010b65p26ddf4f59a0ee5fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690910200912s3829c18fy2809437f0ff11d2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Edward Potter <edwardpotter at gmail.com> wrote:
> A MacBook is pretty much a gift from God and Steve Jobs. You can run the
> world from Washington Square Park.? :-)
>
> Apple Stock up now what 20X? over the last few year? BECAUSE it's machines
> are mind blowing amazing. It's the most amazing development environment I've
> ever used. I love the glossy display by the way.

Uh, if it was a gift from god, the home and end keys would work
consistently across all apps and in bash shells on remote servers.

MacBooks are nice, but they aren't divine until you put a little
configuration work into them. See
http://chxor.chxo.com/post/21116545/keybindings-in-osx-terminal if you
need the correct mappings, by the way.


From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Tue Oct 20 13:47:56 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:47:56 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

What a cool pile of information -- the whole thread. Honestly I should 
have upgraded long ago. Thanks for a ton of useful input.

Here also is an article from August (this year) that seems pretty 
useful, too: "Build a High Powered Linux Workstation on the Cheap" 
<http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/6824/1/>. This is such 
a fast-moving target that finding current stuff like this on the web is 
a daunting task.

- Allen

>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:02 PM, John Campbell wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Allen Shaw
>>> <allen at twomiceandastrawberry.com> wrote:
>>>> I'd love to hear any advice on what makes a good web developer's 
>>>> machine.
>>>> At this point I don't have a lot of places to ask, other than vendors
>>>> who'll just sell me as much as they can con me into.
>>>
>>> I just got a new MacBook Pro today, and I gave my one year old MacBook
>>> Pro to a co-worker. My new computer has a glossy display, and the
>>> reflection is terrible with a black background in the terminal. I am
>>> okay with a white background, which makes the reflection go away, but
>>> if you code on a black background, make sure you get a computer with a
>>> matte display.


-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From smanes at magpie.com  Tue Oct 20 14:32:26 2009
From: smanes at magpie.com (Steve Manes)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:32:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <4ADE023A.9090903@magpie.com>

Allen Shaw wrote:
> What a cool pile of information -- the whole thread. Honestly I should 
> have upgraded long ago. Thanks for a ton of useful input.

Bless the IRS, I've got my dream dev box on order: an 8-core Mac Pro 
w/16GB + cinema display.  Running VMWare, it will replace three Dell 
boxes and a KVM.  Hopefully it will be a couple of degrees cooler and a 
couple of decibels quieter in my office.  And I'll only have one dog 
hair filter to clean every week.


From suzerain at suzerain.com  Tue Oct 20 17:57:06 2009
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:57:06 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>

Hi there:

I'm on a shared machine, and trying to get some 15 MB or so SQL files  
into MySQL.  No problem doing this at the command line, of course, but  
I have several SQL files that need to be imported a few times a month.  
So, ideally, I'd like to FTP them to a directory and go to a web page  
and hit a button to do the import.

Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's  
support thinks it's out of memory.  According to phpinfo(), the script  
can use 90M, so the question is why a 20M sql import would use up 90M?

I'm doing it like this:

$cmd = "/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password  
db_name < sqlfile.sql";
exec( $cmd );

I had thought that using this command-line command would prevent PHP  
from dealing with the memory footprint of the operation, but  
apparently this is not the case.

So...doable in PHP without an approach like busting apart the file  
into small chunks?  Or better to use another language on the server  
for this...?

Cheers,
Marc




From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 18:07:38 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David A. Roth)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:07:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <642abf2e0910201507k74e5f290t4cdbf674e82670c5@mail.gmail.com>

If you are getting an "out of memory" error from a PHP program, see if
on your shared hosting account you have access to the php.ini file. If
so,  increase the memory.

After you locate the php.ini file, look for this line:
memory_limit = 16M      ; Maximum amount of memory a script may consume

The default, at least from my experience lately I've seen is 16MB. Try
increasing this from 16M to perhaps 128M or more, and see if this
allows your PHP script to continue without error.

On shared web hosting accounts, while there might be a /etc/php.ini
for the system, there is usually a locate one for the user. If there
is a CPANEL on your hosting account, look there for options to make
changes to PHP.

I was loading an XML file which was very large and ended up increasing
the memory_limit to several times its value in order for it to work
without a memory error.

Hope this helps!

David Roth

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Marc Antony Vose <suzerain at suzerain.com> wrote:
> Hi there:
>
> I'm on a shared machine, and trying to get some 15 MB or so SQL files into
> MySQL. ?No problem doing this at the command line, of course, but I have
> several SQL files that need to be imported a few times a month. So, ideally,
> I'd like to FTP them to a directory and go to a web page and hit a button to
> do the import.
>
> Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's support
> thinks it's out of memory. ?According to phpinfo(), the script can use 90M,
> so the question is why a 20M sql import would use up 90M?
>
> I'm doing it like this:
>
> $cmd = "/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password db_name <
> sqlfile.sql";
> exec( $cmd );
>
> I had thought that using this command-line command would prevent PHP from
> dealing with the memory footprint of the operation, but apparently this is
> not the case.
>
> So...doable in PHP without an approach like busting apart the file into
> small chunks? ?Or better to use another language on the server for this...?
>
> Cheers,
> Marc
>


From leam at reuel.net  Tue Oct 20 18:05:54 2009
From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:05:54 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
Message-ID: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>

Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment I'm 
stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data. So I have 
a file that gets imported, is used and potentially changed, and then 
needs to be written back to a file if any data changed.

Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each array?

Thanks!

Leam


From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Tue Oct 20 18:15:33 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:15:33 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <4ADE3685.6080809@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Leam Hall wrote:
> Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment I'm 
> stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data. So I 
> have a file that gets imported, is used and potentially changed, and 
> then needs to be written back to a file if any data changed.
>
> Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each 
> array? 
If by "do this" you mean to see if the array changed, what about 
array_diff()?

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"

allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com
Phone: (903)361-7429 ("361-SHAW")
Fax:   (253)276-8711
http://www.TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com



From glenn310b at mac.com  Tue Oct 20 18:16:05 2009
From: glenn310b at mac.com (Glenn Powell)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:16:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <082A36C2-36CB-4376-99E6-177E298B49DC@mac.com>

This might do it.

I haven't used this, but I've seen other's use it.

http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.serialize.php

HTH,

Glenn

On Oct 20, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Leam Hall wrote:

> Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment  
> I'm stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data. So  
> I have a file that gets imported, is used and potentially changed,  
> and then needs to be written back to a file if any data changed.
>
> Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each  
> array?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Leam
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Oct 20 20:11:03 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:11:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>

Hi Marc:

FYI, in the future, when starting a new topic, make a whole new email, so 
it doesn't look like it's part of the thread you're replying to.  Now to 
your question...


> Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's  
> support thinks it's out of memory.

Why should anyone be guessing what the issue is?  PHP's error messages 
explain exactly what the problem is in plain English.  Please post the 
actual error message.


> $cmd = "/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password  
> db_name < sqlfile.sql";
> exec( $cmd );

Yeah, that shouldn't involve PHP's memory.

Another thought, if this is (nearly) all you're doing, why involvine PHP 
at all?  Do it directly in a shell script.

import.cgi
---------
#! /bin/sh

/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password \
    db_name < sqlfile.sql
---------

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 20:14:23 2009
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:14:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com> 
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com> 
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
Message-ID: <e065b8610910201714y1dfab60cs72c2357cf0861a39@mail.gmail.com>

Modify your insert statements to take advantage of LOAD DATA INFILE:

http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/load-data.html

You should see a perf improvement.

- jake

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:11 PM, Daniel Convissor
<danielc at analysisandsolutions.com> wrote:
> Hi Marc:
>
> FYI, in the future, when starting a new topic, make a whole new email, so
> it doesn't look like it's part of the thread you're replying to. ?Now to
> your question...
>
>
>> Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's
>> support thinks it's out of memory.
>
> Why should anyone be guessing what the issue is? ?PHP's error messages
> explain exactly what the problem is in plain English. ?Please post the
> actual error message.
>
>
>> $cmd = "/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password
>> db_name < sqlfile.sql";
>> exec( $cmd );
>
> Yeah, that shouldn't involve PHP's memory.
>
> Another thought, if this is (nearly) all you're doing, why involvine PHP
> at all? ?Do it directly in a shell script.
>
> import.cgi
> ---------
> #! /bin/sh
>
> /path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password \
> ? ?db_name < sqlfile.sql
> ---------
>
> --Dan
>
> --
> ?T H E ? A N A L Y S I S ? A N D ? S O L U T I O N S ? C O M P A N Y
> ? ? ? ? ? ?data intensive web and database programming
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
> ?4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232 ?v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From ramons at gmx.net  Tue Oct 20 20:15:15 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:15:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <4ADE5293.3090200@gmx.net>

Leam Hall wrote:
> Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment I'm 
> stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data. So I have 
> a file that gets imported, is used and potentially changed, and then 
> needs to be written back to a file if any data changed.
> 
> Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each array?

Having never faced this issue this sounds like a job for an XML file and XML 
parser. My bet is that there are bazillion of those and they all do the job 
slightly differently or not at all.
I guess I leave you with this thought of my amateurish spirit, maybe it sparks 
some ideas.

David


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Oct 20 20:16:59 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:16:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE3685.6080809@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
	<4ADE3685.6080809@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
Message-ID: <20091021001659.GB148@panix.com>

Heya:

> If by "do this" you mean to see if the array changed, what about  
> array_diff()?

And be aware that the order of arguments impacts the results.

$a = array(
    'a' => 'one',
    'b' => 'two',
    'd' => 'four',
);

$b = array(
    'a' => 'one',
    'b' => 'two',
    'c' => 'three',
);

print_r(array_diff($a, $b));
print_r(array_diff($b, $a));

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Tue Oct 20 20:23:23 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:23:23 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <e065b8610910201714y1dfab60cs72c2357cf0861a39@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<e065b8610910201714y1dfab60cs72c2357cf0861a39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091021002323.GC148@panix.com>

Hola:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 08:14:23PM -0400, Jake McGraw wrote:
> Modify your insert statements to take advantage of LOAD DATA INFILE:

Definitely a handy statement.  But you'll need to be granted "FILE" 
permissions (aka "File_priv") in MySQL, which is not enabled by default.  
And the input file needs to be formatted along the lines of a CSV file 
rather than as a series of SQL commands.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From tim_lists at o2group.com  Tue Oct 20 21:42:18 2009
From: tim_lists at o2group.com (Tim Lieberman)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:42:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
Message-ID: <2090BA23-902B-41D1-8090-7508CE047296@o2group.com>

On Oct 20, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Leam Hall wrote:

> Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment  
> I'm stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data. So  
> I have a file that gets imported, is used and potentially changed,  
> and then needs to be written back to a file if any data changed.
>
> Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each  
> array?

Sounds like a job for json_encode/json_decode.

You could use serialize(), but serialize() can have problems with  
multibyte characters.

json_[de|en]code will create nice, concise, strings.

The advantage of serialize() over the json functions is that serialize  
can serialize objects, and you'll actually get them back (assuming the  
class has been defined when you call unserialize()

-Tim



From suzerain at suzerain.com  Wed Oct 21 05:02:01 2009
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:02:01 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
Message-ID: <DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>


Le Oct 21, 2009 ? 8:11 AM, Daniel Convissor a ?crit :

>> Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's
>> support thinks it's out of memory.
>
> Why should anyone be guessing what the issue is?  PHP's error messages
> explain exactly what the problem is in plain English.  Please post the
> actual error message.
>

Sorry...I made a typo there.  I  meant that the script is terminating  
with a 500 Error (NOT a PHP error)...which means there is no log or  
useful error trail.  All I see in the error_log is the dreaded  
"Premature end of script headers" error.

It usually points to out of memory or some other config error (like a  
bunk shebang line in a CGI).

In this case, the script works when I import the smaller tables, and  
gives the 500 Error when I try the larger tables, so I think out of  
memory is a pretty reasonable hypothesis.

As I said, PHP's memory_limit is set to 90M by default (according to  
phpinfo()) and I tried upping it to 128M, and phpinfo() says it's set  
to that, also, so I'm a bit confused as to why one 16 MB file would  
exceed 90M on import, but hey, who knows.


> Another thought, if this is (nearly) all you're doing, why involvine  
> PHP
> at all?  Do it directly in a shell script.
>

I was using PHP partly because it's the language I'm most familiar  
with, but more importantly because I don't want to automatically  
import certain files; the decision to import is based on logic in the  
script, and some of that logic comes from information in the bigger  
web application it's a part of.

I already rewrote the script in Perl, but still had issues with  
importing the larger tables there, too.

I'm not really much of a shell scripter; perhaps I should see if I can  
do it that way.

If anyone has any other strategy that can work in PHP, let me know.

Cheers,
Marc




From suzerain at suzerain.com  Wed Oct 21 08:47:06 2009
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:47:06 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Arrays out of a file and back in?
In-Reply-To: <2090BA23-902B-41D1-8090-7508CE047296@o2group.com>
References: <4ADE3442.3050402@reuel.net>
	<2090BA23-902B-41D1-8090-7508CE047296@o2group.com>
Message-ID: <178D21BE-150F-4E50-BBDA-C9C87A2D350F@suzerain.com>


Le Oct 21, 2009 ? 9:42 AM, Tim Lieberman a ?crit :

> On Oct 20, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Leam Hall wrote:
>
>> Down the road I'll get this going in a database, but at the moment  
>> I'm stuck using flat files to store multi-dimensional array data.  
>> So I have a file that gets imported, is used and potentially  
>> changed, and then needs to be written back to a file if any data  
>> changed.
>>
>> Is there a good way to do this other than just iterate through each  
>> array?
>
> Sounds like a job for json_encode/json_decode.
>
> You could use serialize(), but serialize() can have problems with  
> multibyte characters.
>
> json_[de|en]code will create nice, concise, strings.
>
> The advantage of serialize() over the json functions is that  
> serialize can serialize objects, and you'll actually get them back  
> (assuming the class has been defined when you call unserialize()
>

Wanted to follow-up.  If you don't need the object serializing  
capability (which you don't). I'd use JSON also, because serialized  
text files aren't necessarily portable across machines (like if you  
move your application from one server to another).

Cheers,
Marc





From d at ingk.com  Wed Oct 21 09:08:42 2009
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:08:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com> 
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com> 
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <c0a185de0910210608n44d6268fh104d2740528f28fa@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds familiar to an issue I had with uninformative 500 Internal Server
errors -- my script was timing out.  Check your max script execution time
with:

echo ini_get('max_execution_time');

Extend it with:

set_time_limit($seconds); // has no effect if running safe_mode

---
Damion Hankejh | hankejh.com



On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Marc Antony Vose <suzerain at suzerain.com>wrote:

>
> Le Oct 21, 2009 ? 8:11 AM, Daniel Convissor a ?crit :
>
>  Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's
>>> support thinks it's out of memory.
>>>
>>
>> Why should anyone be guessing what the issue is?  PHP's error messages
>> explain exactly what the problem is in plain English.  Please post the
>> actual error message.
>>
>>
> Sorry...I made a typo there.  I  meant that the script is terminating with
> a 500 Error (NOT a PHP error)...which means there is no log or useful error
> trail.  All I see in the error_log is the dreaded "Premature end of script
> headers" error.
>
> It usually points to out of memory or some other config error (like a bunk
> shebang line in a CGI).
>
> In this case, the script works when I import the smaller tables, and gives
> the 500 Error when I try the larger tables, so I think out of memory is a
> pretty reasonable hypothesis.
>
> As I said, PHP's memory_limit is set to 90M by default (according to
> phpinfo()) and I tried upping it to 128M, and phpinfo() says it's set to
> that, also, so I'm a bit confused as to why one 16 MB file would exceed 90M
> on import, but hey, who knows.
>
>
>  Another thought, if this is (nearly) all you're doing, why involvine PHP
>> at all?  Do it directly in a shell script.
>>
>>
> I was using PHP partly because it's the language I'm most familiar with,
> but more importantly because I don't want to automatically import certain
> files; the decision to import is based on logic in the script, and some of
> that logic comes from information in the bigger web application it's a part
> of.
>
> I already rewrote the script in Perl, but still had issues with importing
> the larger tables there, too.
>
> I'm not really much of a shell scripter; perhaps I should see if I can do
> it that way.
>
> If anyone has any other strategy that can work in PHP, let me know.
>
> Cheers,
> Marc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091021/9ae77102/attachment.html>

From dan.horning at planetnoc.com  Wed Oct 21 09:20:48 2009
From: dan.horning at planetnoc.com (Daniel Horning)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:20:48 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <c0a185de0910210608n44d6268fh104d2740528f28fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
	<c0a185de0910210608n44d6268fh104d2740528f28fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003201ca5251$4e97cbc0$ebc76340$@horning@planetnoc.com>

the command line one is much faster 
 

 

mysql -uUSER -p DATABASETARGET < FILENAME

 

(will prompt you for your password)

 

--

Dan Horning

 

American Digital Services - Where you are only limited by imagination.

dan.horning at planetnoc.com :: http://www.americandigitalservices.com

1-518-444-0213 x502 . toll free 1-800-863-3854 . fax 1-888-474-6133

15 Third Street, PO Box 746, Troy, NY 12180 (by appointment only)

 

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Damion Hankejh
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:09 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql

 

Sounds familiar to an issue I had with uninformative 500 Internal Server
errors -- my script was timing out.  Check your max script execution time
with:

 

echo ini_get('max_execution_time');

 

Extend it with:

 

set_time_limit($seconds); // has no effect if running safe_mode

---
Damion Hankejh | hankejh.com



 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Marc Antony Vose <suzerain at suzerain.com>
wrote:


Le Oct 21, 2009 ? 8:11 AM, Daniel Convissor a ?crit :

 

Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's
support thinks it's out of memory.


Why should anyone be guessing what the issue is?  PHP's error messages
explain exactly what the problem is in plain English.  Please post the
actual error message.

 

Sorry...I made a typo there.  I  meant that the script is terminating with a
500 Error (NOT a PHP error)...which means there is no log or useful error
trail.  All I see in the error_log is the dreaded "Premature end of script
headers" error.

It usually points to out of memory or some other config error (like a bunk
shebang line in a CGI).

In this case, the script works when I import the smaller tables, and gives
the 500 Error when I try the larger tables, so I think out of memory is a
pretty reasonable hypothesis.

As I said, PHP's memory_limit is set to 90M by default (according to
phpinfo()) and I tried upping it to 128M, and phpinfo() says it's set to
that, also, so I'm a bit confused as to why one 16 MB file would exceed 90M
on import, but hey, who knows.





Another thought, if this is (nearly) all you're doing, why involvine PHP
at all?  Do it directly in a shell script.

 

I was using PHP partly because it's the language I'm most familiar with, but
more importantly because I don't want to automatically import certain files;
the decision to import is based on logic in the script, and some of that
logic comes from information in the bigger web application it's a part of.

I already rewrote the script in Perl, but still had issues with importing
the larger tables there, too.

I'm not really much of a shell scripter; perhaps I should see if I can do it
that way.

If anyone has any other strategy that can work in PHP, let me know.

Cheers,
Marc




_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091021/f79297c8/attachment.html>

From suzerain at suzerain.com  Wed Oct 21 09:52:54 2009
From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Antony Vose)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:52:54 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <c0a185de0910210608n44d6268fh104d2740528f28fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
	<c0a185de0910210608n44d6268fh104d2740528f28fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EAFCB93-31B5-492D-92EF-5AFFF5063B1D@suzerain.com>


Le Oct 21, 2009 ? 9:08 PM, Damion Hankejh a ?crit :

> Sounds familiar to an issue I had with uninformative 500 Internal  
> Server errors -- my script was timing out.  Check your max script  
> execution time with:
>
> echo ini_get('max_execution_time');
>
> Extend it with:
>
> set_time_limit($seconds); // has no effect if running safe_mode
>


Yeah, to rule that out, in this case, I had set the max_execution_time  
to zero, which is supposed to mean there is no limit.  phpinfo() says  
it's set to 0.

Marc

From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Wed Oct 21 18:48:13 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:48:13 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <20091021224813.GA28551@panix.com>

Hi Marc:

> Sorry...I made a typo there.  I  meant that the script is terminating  
> with a 500 Error (NOT a PHP error)...which means there is no log or  
> useful error trail.  All I see in the error_log is the dreaded  
> "Premature end of script headers" error.

By saying the log shows "premature end of script headers," I assume 
you're talking about Apache's error log, right?  What does PHP's error 
log show?  See the log_errors and error_log settings in php.ini to learn 
if it's on and where the log is.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From glenn310b at mac.com  Wed Oct 21 20:34:17 2009
From: glenn310b at mac.com (Glenn Powell)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:34:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <20091021224813.GA28551@panix.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
	<20091021224813.GA28551@panix.com>
Message-ID: <32556549-2D95-425C-A7D1-A70D3B495C07@mac.com>

I remember seeing "Premature end of script headers" with
Perl scripts when I mistakenly ftp'd them to the server in binary
mode instead of ascii mode.  Drove me crazy, and I knew better
than to do that, I just overlooked the mode when I uploaded.

Glenn

On Oct 21, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Daniel Convissor wrote:

> Hi Marc:
>
>> Sorry...I made a typo there.  I  meant that the script is terminating
>> with a 500 Error (NOT a PHP error)...which means there is no log or
>> useful error trail.  All I see in the error_log is the dreaded
>> "Premature end of script headers" error.
>
> By saying the log shows "premature end of script headers," I assume
> you're talking about Apache's error log, right?  What does PHP's error
> log show?  See the log_errors and error_log settings in php.ini to  
> learn
> if it's on and where the log is.
>
> --Dan
>
> -- 
> T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
>            data intensive web and database programming
>                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
> 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 20:55:41 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:55:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380910211755h5706f9dby994e05fe199697a5@mail.gmail.com>

I think the post about the command line maybe the way to go. People suck
into terabytes of sql files into mysql tables. At that level you want to go
hardcore and get as close to raw inputs as possible.

The command line and VI are your friends. Really!  :-)  That's about as
hardcore as you can go.




On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Marc Antony Vose <suzerain at suzerain.com>wrote:

> Hi there:
>
> I'm on a shared machine, and trying to get some 15 MB or so SQL files into
> MySQL.  No problem doing this at the command line, of course, but I have
> several SQL files that need to be imported a few times a month. So, ideally,
> I'd like to FTP them to a directory and go to a web page and hit a button to
> do the import.
>
> Problem is, the PHP script is terminating with a PHP error; server's
> support thinks it's out of memory.  According to phpinfo(), the script can
> use 90M, so the question is why a 20M sql import would use up 90M?
>
> I'm doing it like this:
>
> $cmd = "/path/to/mysql -h hostname -u username --password=password db_name
> < sqlfile.sql";
> exec( $cmd );
>
> I had thought that using this command-line command would prevent PHP from
> dealing with the memory footprint of the operation, but apparently this is
> not the case.
>
> So...doable in PHP without an approach like busting apart the file into
> small chunks?  Or better to use another language on the server for this...?
>
> Cheers,
> Marc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091021/dfac164b/attachment.html>

From johnjccraig at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 00:10:23 2009
From: johnjccraig at yahoo.com (John Craig)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] looking for developers who believe in APIs and good
	karma
Message-ID: <809290.92108.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi Everyone,
I'm not a total random interloper --?Hans?suggested it would be OK to post an ultra-brief survey to the Talk list. I'm a Columbia grad student here in NYC working with a real-life client (a major media organization) on a?communications plan?to support the release of an API that would expose my client's robust database of news content. This survey is super short but could go a long way in helping a most appreciative student hand in a plan that actually earns him a degree! Many, many thanks in advance for your consideration -- and to be clear, this survey is strictly for non-commercial, academic purposes! Cheers, John

Here's the link:?
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/192686/developers-and-apis-october-2009-?


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091021/c53b3917/attachment.html>

From fgabrieli at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 11:13:53 2009
From: fgabrieli at gmail.com (Fernando Gabrieli)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:13:53 -0200
Subject: [nycphp-talk] looking for developers who believe in APIs and
	good karma
In-Reply-To: <809290.92108.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <809290.92108.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <be1d525a0910220813y200fcc55t505d9917699cc9c0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, i've filled the survey. I think you should add 'Search engines'
regarding to where to find information about an API / project, the very
first thing i do is to type it's name in Google. One option that seems
impossible to me is a developer looking for information about an API on
Twitter, unless it's about the Twitter API :)

I hope it helps

Best regards,
Fernando

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 2:10 AM, John Craig <johnjccraig at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> I'm not a total random interloper -- Hans suggested it would be OK to post
> an ultra-brief survey to the Talk list. I'm a Columbia grad student here in
> NYC working with a real-life client (a major media organization) on a communications
> plan to support the release of an API that would expose my client's robust
> database of news content. This survey is super short but could go a long way
> in helping a most appreciative student hand in a plan that actually earns
> him a degree! Many, many thanks in advance for your consideration -- and to
> be clear, this survey is strictly for non-commercial, academic purposes!
> Cheers, John
>
> Here's the link: *
> *
> http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/192686/developers-and-apis-october-2009-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091022/f6722d01/attachment.html>

From will.ashley at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 11:31:55 2009
From: will.ashley at gmail.com (Will Ashley)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:31:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] looking for developers who believe in APIs and
	good karma
In-Reply-To: <be1d525a0910220813y200fcc55t505d9917699cc9c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <809290.92108.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<be1d525a0910220813y200fcc55t505d9917699cc9c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66096ff70910220831j726c480bga4fd003b9a377f7e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John -

Just took the survey, it's well-composed and pretty comprehensive, but I
have to say I agree with Fernando, I'm aware it may be too late to alter the
survey but I think item on search engines one uses to find information on
APIs. Whereas I might find information about an API on a blog, etc. - if I
was *looking* for information on an API that could do x thing - I would
definitely be using a search engine.

Best,
Will

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Fernando Gabrieli <fgabrieli at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi, i've filled the survey. I think you should add 'Search engines'
> regarding to where to find information about an API / project, the very
> first thing i do is to type it's name in Google. One option that seems
> impossible to me is a developer looking for information about an API on
> Twitter, unless it's about the Twitter API :)
>
> I hope it helps
>
> Best regards,
> Fernando
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 2:10 AM, John Craig <johnjccraig at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>> I'm not a total random interloper -- Hans suggested it would be OK to
>> post an ultra-brief survey to the Talk list. I'm a Columbia grad student
>> here in NYC working with a real-life client (a major media organization) on
>> a communications plan to support the release of an API that would expose
>> my client's robust database of news content. This survey is super short but
>> could go a long way in helping a most appreciative student hand in a plan
>> that actually earns him a degree! Many, many thanks in advance for your
>> consideration -- and to be clear, this survey is strictly for
>> non-commercial, academic purposes! Cheers, John
>>
>> Here's the link: *
>> *
>> http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/192686/developers-and-apis-october-2009-
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091022/31341fcc/attachment.html>

From allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com  Thu Oct 22 11:31:56 2009
From: allen at TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com (Allen Shaw)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:31:56 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] developer's machine specs -- recomendations?
In-Reply-To: <4ADE023A.9090903@magpie.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<4ADE023A.9090903@magpie.com>
Message-ID: <4AE07AEC.8070008@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>

Thanks to everyone's input I was able to make an educated decision. 
Probably not as high-end as some folks would want, but I expect the Dell 
box I've ordered to work for me and to be a huge step up from my current 
rig.

On order: 3GHz dual core (Intel E8400), 4GB RAM, etc.
On the curb: Pentium 4 1.6GHz, 630MB RAM, etc. (wow...)

Thanks again,
- A.

-- 
Allen Shaw
TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com

"Data Management, Web Applications, and the Meaning of Life"




From pjlists at pobox.com  Thu Oct 22 12:03:10 2009
From: pjlists at pobox.com (=?UTF-8?B?UC4gSnUgKOacsea8oueShyk=?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:03:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] looking for developers who believe in APIs and
	good karma
In-Reply-To: <66096ff70910220831j726c480bga4fd003b9a377f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <809290.92108.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<be1d525a0910220813y200fcc55t505d9917699cc9c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<66096ff70910220831j726c480bga4fd003b9a377f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7fb2405d0910220903m60e1f6e4x2fca6f4da28870@mail.gmail.com>

BTW - the survey had a glitch for me (Firefox on Mac) that garbled and
didn't allow me to enter text for "other" on sources for API info that
would move me to use them. I wanted to enter-it doesn't matter where I
found out from or who it's from, what matters is that it fits my needs
and is robust.

PJ

On 10/22/09, Will Ashley <will.ashley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi John -
>
> Just took the survey, it's well-composed and pretty comprehensive, but I
> have to say I agree with Fernando, I'm aware it may be too late to alter the
> survey but I think item on search engines one uses to find information on
> APIs. Whereas I might find information about an API on a blog, etc. - if I
> was *looking* for information on an API that could do x thing - I would
> definitely be using a search engine.
>
> Best,
> Will
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Fernando Gabrieli
> <fgabrieli at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi, i've filled the survey. I think you should add 'Search engines'
>> regarding to where to find information about an API / project, the very
>> first thing i do is to type it's name in Google. One option that seems
>> impossible to me is a developer looking for information about an API on
>> Twitter, unless it's about the Twitter API :)
>>
>> I hope it helps
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fernando
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 2:10 AM, John Craig <johnjccraig at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>> I'm not a total random interloper -- Hans suggested it would be OK to
>>> post an ultra-brief survey to the Talk list. I'm a Columbia grad student
>>> here in NYC working with a real-life client (a major media organization)
>>> on
>>> a communications plan to support the release of an API that would expose
>>> my client's robust database of news content. This survey is super short
>>> but
>>> could go a long way in helping a most appreciative student hand in a plan
>>> that actually earns him a degree! Many, many thanks in advance for your
>>> consideration -- and to be clear, this survey is strictly for
>>> non-commercial, academic purposes! Cheers, John
>>>
>>> Here's the link: *
>>> *
>>> http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/192686/developers-and-apis-october-2009-
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>


-- 
Patricia Ju
phj at pobox.com
+1-646-717-3871

success = fn(perseverance)


From lists at zaunere.com  Thu Oct 22 17:39:36 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:39:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] FW: Websockets class
Message-ID: <097701ca5360$26aa9600$73ffc200$@com>

All, I'm forwarding this on behalf of the Java group because it could be a
nice class and will cover some of "web 3.0" :) (and Frank from NYJavaSIG was
able to get us a discount).

H

> HTML5 Communications Workshop
> 
> One day hands-on workshop about using the new HTML5 network stack for
"real-time"
> collaborative applications.  WebSockets, a true bidirectional socket over
the web,
> will allow developers to efficiently create enterprise-grade applications
over a
> web infrastructure without any polling.  Its a big step forward for the
web and
> will provide the network plumbing for the next generation web
applications.
> 
> I negotiated a 50% discount for the NYJavaSIG and NYPHP user groups.
Additional
> people from the same company can get in for free.
> 
>    What: HTML5 Communications Workshop
>     Who: Kaazing - Peter Lubbers, Senior Instructor
>    When: Nov 10, 2009
>   Where: Digital Sandbox (4th Floor) 55 Broad Street, NY, NY 1004
> 
>          50% OFF:
> 	http://html5workshopnyc.eventbrite.com/?discount=HTML5
<
> Additional Free:
> 	http://html5workshopnyc.eventbrite.com/?discount=JOVUSFREE
> 
> For more info: training at kaazing.com



From al.ko at webfoundation.net  Thu Oct 22 19:07:09 2009
From: al.ko at webfoundation.net (Aleksey Korzun)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:07:09 -0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] does Dreamhost suck?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1253635202.3836.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1253635202.3836.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <656707536.20090922121637@webfoundation.net>

Hello,

   Just wanted to throw in another suggestion of using Rackspace Cloud
   (http://www.rackspacecloud.com/); specifically their Cloud Servers
   offering.

   That is, if you are looking for something more flexible. I think pricing
   wise it's not bad at all given some extra benefits you can gain
   using their 'platform'.

   You can also use their API to interact with cloud server(s):
   http://github.com/AlekseyKorzun/php-cloudservers ;)


-- 
Best regards,
 Aleksey   Korzun
 www.webfoundation.net                        mailto:al.ko at webfoundation.net



From peterbsemail at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 20:26:38 2009
From: peterbsemail at gmail.com (Peter Becker)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:26:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
Message-ID: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>

Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do 
layout?  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our 
site using Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work 
for the business to create and update content but not get in the way of 
our page design/implementation, code promotion and environment 
management.  Any guidance here is greatly appreciated



From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 21:40:47 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:40:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do layout?
> ?We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
> Zend Framework. ?We're looking for a something that will work for the
> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management. ?Any
> guidance here is greatly appreciated

Check out silverstripe, which might do what you are looking for. It
takes a page-centric design attitude which definitely sits well with
designers.

http://www.silverstripe.org/

-- Mitch


From 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com  Thu Oct 22 23:41:35 2009
From: 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com (inforequest)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:41:35 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8326-99003@sneakemail.com>

Mitch Pirtle mitch.pirtle-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal 
group use| wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do layout?
>>  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
>> Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work for the
>> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
>> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management.  Any
>> guidance here is greatly appreciated
>>     
>
> Check out silverstripe, which might do what you are looking for. It
> takes a page-centric design attitude which definitely sits well with
> designers.
>
> http://www.silverstripe.org/
>
> -- Mitch

I always look at Mitch's recommendations, so I just dl'd and installed 
Silverlight and put up a test site. Nice and easy. But... sadly, not SEO 
compatible out of the box, and not simple to fix.

The immediate core issue for me is the way it parses the URL on a slash...

Practically speaking,  this causes duplicate content issues for 
spidering search engines e.g. the aboutus page is accessible at 
www.example.com/aboutus/ but also resolves at 
www.example.com/aboutus/whatever
and www.example.com/aboutus/whatever/whatever/

You don't get a 404 until you go three slashes out... chalk it up to the 
sapphire framework's front controller.

I'm looking to see if I can clarify this for the sapphire dev forum, or 
if it has been addressed already in the roadmap....

-=john








From ajai at bitblit.net  Thu Oct 22 23:57:30 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910222357030.6456-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009, Peter Becker wrote:

> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do 
> layout?  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our 
> site using Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work 
> for the business to create and update content but not get in the way of 
> our page design/implementation, code promotion and environment 
> management.  Any guidance here is greatly appreciated

Maybe Steer CMS http://www.steercms-project.org/

???

-- 
Aj.



From nycfug_org at dynamicink.com  Fri Oct 23 01:58:24 2009
From: nycfug_org at dynamicink.com (PHProx)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:58:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01ca53a5$e1ea7a30$bf0aa8c0@e6300>

While not technically a CMS, the wiki component in the Vork framework 
(http://www.Vork.us) provides full control over the layout and can be 
utilized as a basic CMS to create/edit/remove pages, log/revert changes and 
enter data in either a WYSIWYG-textbox or standard textarea with WYSIWYG 
live-preview. Vork tools all output valid XHTML 1.1, including the WYSIWYG 
tools.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Becker" <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:26 PM
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?


> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do 
> layout?  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site 
> using Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work for 
> the business to create and update content but not get in the way of our 
> page design/implementation, code promotion and environment management. 
> Any guidance here is greatly appreciated
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation 



From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 13:40:36 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:40:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM, inforequest <1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com> wrote:
> Mitch Pirtle mitch.pirtle-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal group
> use| wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do
>>> layout?
>>> ?We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
>>> Zend Framework. ?We're looking for a something that will work for the
>>> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
>>> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management. ?Any
>>> guidance here is greatly appreciated
>>>
>>
>> Check out silverstripe, which might do what you are looking for. It
>> takes a page-centric design attitude which definitely sits well with
>> designers.
>>
>> http://www.silverstripe.org/
>>
>> -- Mitch
>
> I always look at Mitch's recommendations, so I just dl'd and installed
> Silverlight and put up a test site. Nice and easy. But... sadly, not SEO
> compatible out of the box, and not simple to fix.
>
> The immediate core issue for me is the way it parses the URL on a slash...
>
> Practically speaking, ?this causes duplicate content issues for spidering
> search engines e.g. the aboutus page is accessible at
> www.example.com/aboutus/ but also resolves at
> www.example.com/aboutus/whatever
> and www.example.com/aboutus/whatever/whatever/
>
> You don't get a 404 until you go three slashes out... chalk it up to the
> sapphire framework's front controller.
>
> I'm looking to see if I can clarify this for the sapphire dev forum, or if
> it has been addressed already in the roadmap....

Would be cool if you flagged them about it - chances are it is
something they could fix, if they understood it to be a problem.

    http://open.silverstripe.org/

-- Mitch


From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Fri Oct 23 13:43:14 2009
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:43:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDADADD288C84389A9ECACF54104B29A@MainTop>

You can try http://modxcms.com/ 

ER

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Mitch Pirtle
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:41 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM, inforequest <1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com>
wrote:
> Mitch Pirtle mitch.pirtle-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal group
> use| wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do
>>> layout?
>>> ?We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
>>> Zend Framework. ?We're looking for a something that will work for the
>>> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
>>> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management. ?Any
>>> guidance here is greatly appreciated
>>>
>>
>> Check out silverstripe, which might do what you are looking for. It
>> takes a page-centric design attitude which definitely sits well with
>> designers.
>>
>> http://www.silverstripe.org/
>>
>> -- Mitch
>
> I always look at Mitch's recommendations, so I just dl'd and installed
> Silverlight and put up a test site. Nice and easy. But... sadly, not SEO
> compatible out of the box, and not simple to fix.
>
> The immediate core issue for me is the way it parses the URL on a slash...
>
> Practically speaking, ?this causes duplicate content issues for spidering
> search engines e.g. the aboutus page is accessible at
> www.example.com/aboutus/ but also resolves at
> www.example.com/aboutus/whatever
> and www.example.com/aboutus/whatever/whatever/
>
> You don't get a 404 until you go three slashes out... chalk it up to the
> sapphire framework's front controller.
>
> I'm looking to see if I can clarify this for the sapphire dev forum, or if
> it has been addressed already in the roadmap....

Would be cool if you flagged them about it - chances are it is
something they could fix, if they understood it to be a problem.

    http://open.silverstripe.org/

-- Mitch
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 15:15:03 2009
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David A. Roth)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:15:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <642abf2e0910231215u34fb960fj8744a8ba198f3ef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Peter.

I see you've gotten responses suggesting other CMS'es to use. I'm most
familiar with Joomla for a CMS. When it comes to having non-technical
people be able to update their own content, Joomla is very good in
that aspect I think. With Joomla you can write modules and prevent
non-technical users from changing it and keep it out of their way
entirely. There are admin pages and templates for the design to make
things easier for the programmer. I'm asking to increase my
understanding of the requirement. How is the layout in a CMS an
obstacle? I have seen mention of using only the Joomla framework
itself, but if you have what sounds like a need for non-technical
people to manage their own content it sounds like Joomla as a CMS
already has that available.

David Roth

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do layout?
> ?We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
> Zend Framework. ?We're looking for a something that will work for the
> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management. ?Any
> guidance here is greatly appreciated


From 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com  Fri Oct 23 15:57:53 2009
From: 1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com (inforequest)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:57:53 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1795-95110@sneakemail.com>

Mitch Pirtle mitch.pirtle-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal 
group use| wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM, inforequest <1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Mitch Pirtle mitch.pirtle-at-gmail.com |nyphp MAIN ONE dev/internal group
>> use| wrote:
>>     
>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do
>>>> layout?
>>>>  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of our site using
>>>> Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work for the
>>>> business to create and update content but not get in the way of our page
>>>> design/implementation, code promotion and environment management.  Any
>>>> guidance here is greatly appreciated
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Check out silverstripe, which might do what you are looking for. It
>>> takes a page-centric design attitude which definitely sits well with
>>> designers.
>>>
>>> http://www.silverstripe.org/
>>>
>>> -- Mitch
>>>       
>> I always look at Mitch's recommendations, so I just dl'd and installed
>> Silverlight and put up a test site. Nice and easy. But... sadly, not SEO
>> compatible out of the box, and not simple to fix.
>>
>> The immediate core issue for me is the way it parses the URL on a slash...
>>
>> Practically speaking,  this causes duplicate content issues for spidering
>> search engines e.g. the aboutus page is accessible at
>> www.example.com/aboutus/ but also resolves at
>> www.example.com/aboutus/whatever
>> and www.example.com/aboutus/whatever/whatever/
>>
>> You don't get a 404 until you go three slashes out... chalk it up to the
>> sapphire framework's front controller.
>>
>> I'm looking to see if I can clarify this for the sapphire dev forum, or if
>> it has been addressed already in the roadmap....
>>     
>
> Would be cool if you flagged them about it - chances are it is
> something they could fix, if they understood it to be a problem.
>
>     http://open.silverstripe.org/
>
> -- Mitch
>   



yes thanks for the link.. put it on my do list after this crushing week 
is over. I prefer to take time to find a nice way to participate, so I 
don't come across as a critical SEO Dbag ;-)


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 16:52:36 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:52:36 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <1795-95110@sneakemail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
	<1795-95110@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910231352u12656b27w50e8c103488492df@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:57 PM, inforequest <1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
> yes thanks for the link.. put it on my do list after this crushing week is
> over. I prefer to take time to find a nice way to participate, so I don't
> come across as a critical SEO Dbag ;-)

*spacemonkey slaps hand over mouth

Just giving you a hard time John ;-)

Actually I chose to skip my usual Joomla pitch for this specific case,
primarily due to the need to implement a vast assortment of core
output overrides and additional extensions needed for proper META and
so on...

However I am biased, and would always be happy to see yet another
website using Joomla!

-- Mitch


From peterbsemail at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 22:07:43 2009
From: peterbsemail at gmail.com (Peter Becker)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 22:07:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910231352u12656b27w50e8c103488492df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>	<330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>	<1795-95110@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231352u12656b27w50e8c103488492df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AE2616F.1030809@gmail.com>

OK, So thank you so much for the input, but now here's the funny part 
Mitch....the first prototype site that we somewhat inherited and are 
completely redoing from scratch (nearly), used a combination of Joomla 
and PHP :-))  This was less to get away from anything in particular, 
just that we know a lot more about what we need to do now and the 
business is smart enough to let us do the right thing (so rare these 
days). 

There are some great things about Joomla, but the site implementation 
felt somewhat schizophrenic in that there was the Joomla half and the 
PHP half.  I'm sure there's better ways to integrate between the two 
than was done, but we had no deep expertise in Joomla and managing the 
site between/across dev, staging, preprod and prod, became quite onerous 
with separate instances of Joomla on dev, preprod and prod.  Felt almost 
like it was defeating the whole purpose of a CMS.

As we're at the beginning stages of spec'ing out the new site, nothing 
is off the table, and maybe there is a clean way to integrate Joomla 
into Zend (and this is a consideration), but it seems like a lot of 
overhead for things we just don't need....ergo trying to do a more clean 
break between the style (handled through Zend) and the content (handled 
through ?).  The challenge with most of the tools/frameworks out there 
is that they want to make building a site as easy as possible which 
usually means mashing the 2 together.  But there always seems to be that 
point of diminishing returns where you start spending more time on the 
work arounds than you ever saved in the beginning - ahh the trade-offs.

Anyway - really appreciate the input and the team here had not heard of 
the other suggestions that were made, but are now looking at and 
evaluating.  Thank you, this really is a great group and think I (or my 
team) may have even met some of you at Code Works 09 in Manhattan.  
We're going to try and get down to the next local meeting if we can 
(we're in CT).

Peter

Mitch Pirtle wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:57 PM, inforequest <1j0lkq002 at sneakemail.com> wrote:
>   
>> yes thanks for the link.. put it on my do list after this crushing week is
>> over. I prefer to take time to find a nice way to participate, so I don't
>> come across as a critical SEO Dbag ;-)
>>     
>
> *spacemonkey slaps hand over mouth
>
> Just giving you a hard time John ;-)
>
> Actually I chose to skip my usual Joomla pitch for this specific case,
> primarily due to the need to implement a vast assortment of core
> output overrides and additional extensions needed for proper META and
> so on...
>
> However I am biased, and would always be happy to see yet another
> website using Joomla!
>
> -- Mitch
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091023/d12338a4/attachment.html>

From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 14:04:13 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:04:13 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE2616F.1030809@gmail.com>
References: <4AE0F83E.30107@gmail.com>
	<330532b60910221840o5a10103dh947e1eb89cc54d79@mail.gmail.com>
	<8326-99003@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231040j7d191348id7821da8ea576137@mail.gmail.com>
	<1795-95110@sneakemail.com>
	<330532b60910231352u12656b27w50e8c103488492df@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE2616F.1030809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330532b60910241104j212023b7j9addfece590eb9d6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Peter Becker <peterbsemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, So thank you so much for the input, but now here's the funny part
> Mitch....the first prototype site that we somewhat inherited and are
> completely redoing from scratch (nearly), used a combination of Joomla and
> PHP :-))? This was less to get away from anything in particular, just that
> we know a lot more about what we need to do now and the business is smart
> enough to let us do the right thing (so rare these days).
>
> There are some great things about Joomla, but the site implementation felt
> somewhat schizophrenic in that there was the Joomla half and the PHP half.
> I'm sure there's better ways to integrate between the two than was done, but
> we had no deep expertise in Joomla and managing the site between/across dev,
> staging, preprod and prod, became quite onerous with separate instances of
> Joomla on dev, preprod and prod.? Felt almost like it was defeating the
> whole purpose of a CMS.
>
> As we're at the beginning stages of spec'ing out the new site, nothing is
> off the table, and maybe there is a clean way to integrate Joomla into Zend
> (and this is a consideration), but it seems like a lot of overhead for
> things we just don't need....ergo trying to do a more clean break between
> the style (handled through Zend) and the content (handled through ?).? The
> challenge with most of the tools/frameworks out there is that they want to
> make building a site as easy as possible which usually means mashing the 2
> together.? But there always seems to be that point of diminishing returns
> where you start spending more time on the work arounds than you ever saved
> in the beginning - ahh the trade-offs.
>
> Anyway - really appreciate the input and the team here had not heard of the
> other suggestions that were made, but are now looking at and evaluating.
> Thank you, this really is a great group and think I (or my team) may have
> even met some of you at Code Works 09 in Manhattan.? We're going to try and
> get down to the next local meeting if we can (we're in CT).

What a small world - I was a morning speaker and talked a little about
Dojo and Thin Server Architecture; and might have met some of you
while hanging out...

As always, the devil's in the details. You have to balance the
advantage of having a CMS that gets love from an active community
(free updates and maintenance) versus the flexibility of a do it
yourself approach (which would call rather for a framework like Zend
or KohanaPHP).

Joomla is a great platform, as long as what you are doing can be done
within Joomla. You start to lose the benefits of a full platform when
you start coding outside of it, which you obviously noticed ;-)

To take advantage of a full platform like Joomla you do need to
approach your implementation the Joomla Way(TM), otherwise consider
eschewing a CMS and go one level lower to a glue framework that gives
you the flexibility you need.

-- Mitch


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Oct 24 15:17:43 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:17:43 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
Message-ID: <1256411863.29876@coral.he.net>

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Becker" <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
> To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:26 PM
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
> 
> 
> > Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do 
> > layout?  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of 
our site 
> > using Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work 
for 
> > the business to create and update content but not get in the way of 
our 
> > page design/implementation, code promotion and environment 
management. 
> > Any guidance here is greatly appreciated
> >
>

I just started on a new project, redoing a CMS for a weekly magazine's 
website, and we are currently doing a proof-of-concept for an 
architecture consisting of Silverstripe CMS, solely for the back end 
data entry/CMS functions, and CakePHP for the presentation layer (to 
avoid the SEO issues with Silverstripe).  Both frameworks would be 
hitting the same database which would be defined and modified within 
the Silverstripe data class code.

I will keep everyone posted on how this goes.  

Kristina


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 15:44:47 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:44:47 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <1256411863.29876@coral.he.net>
References: <1256411863.29876@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <c5949a380910241244t4f3f3196g970c55f4295cd400@mail.gmail.com>

ummm, from my experience, in the end it is REALLY easy to just write your
own CMS. You can trash 98% of what the bloated CMS packages out there give
your. You just don't need it. It's so overkill.




On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Kristina Anderson <
ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:

> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Becker" <peterbsemail at gmail.com>
> > To: <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:26 PM
> > Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
> >
> >
> > > Is there even such a thing as an off-the-shelf CMS that does NOT do
> > > layout?  We are just beginning to design and spec the next rev of
> our site
> > > using Zend Framework.  We're looking for a something that will work
> for
> > > the business to create and update content but not get in the way of
> our
> > > page design/implementation, code promotion and environment
> management.
> > > Any guidance here is greatly appreciated
> > >
> >
>
> I just started on a new project, redoing a CMS for a weekly magazine's
> website, and we are currently doing a proof-of-concept for an
> architecture consisting of Silverstripe CMS, solely for the back end
> data entry/CMS functions, and CakePHP for the presentation layer (to
> avoid the SEO issues with Silverstripe).  Both frameworks would be
> hitting the same database which would be defined and modified within
> the Silverstripe data class code.
>
> I will keep everyone posted on how this goes.
>
> Kristina
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091024/3c619166/attachment.html>

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Oct 24 16:03:47 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:03:47 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
Message-ID: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net>



> 
> ummm, from my experience, in the end it is REALLY easy to just write 
your
> own CMS. You can trash 98% of what the bloated CMS packages out there 
give
> your. You just don't need it. It's so overkill.
> 
> 
> 

The ease of doing it from scratch varies depending on the complexity of 
both the site's front end, and the internal editorial/content approval 
processes that need to be provided, and of course as usual you have IT 
managers who are convinced that "doing it with frameworks" will save 
tons of time and money.

I've also had the experience of debugging and stabilizing some 
extremely poorly designed written-from-scratch PHP CMSes which lacked 
basic stuff like proper edit-mode handling and whose UIs were almost 
impossible for the end-users to understand...

So while rolling your own CMS is certainly a viable option, these 
frameworks offer a lot of advantages even if they are somewhat bloated 
with idiotic features.  I'm also in a position where this architecture 
was "decided upon" by persons with no actual experience doing things 
this way...which is where the proof-of-concept comes in.  We may do a 
180 if required.

Kristina


From alan at alanseiden.com  Sun Oct 25 00:03:13 2009
From: alan at alanseiden.com (Alan Seiden)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:03:13 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] php.net seeking help with redesign
Message-ID: <4AE3CE01.1090100@alanseiden.com>

The http://php.net site is being revamped and they are looking for 
volunteers to help.

Information: http://php2009.net/

Alan
-- 
Alan Seiden
Senior Developer/Technical Lead
Zend Certified Engineer for Zend Framework
PHP i5 Solutions, Strategic Business Systems, Inc.
alan at alanseiden.com | 201-327-8746 x144 | blog/articles: alanseiden.com


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/496bdf16/attachment.html>

From JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com  Sun Oct 25 00:21:05 2009
From: JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com (Joey Derrico)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:21:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net>
References: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4AE3D231.9040605@nyc.rr.com>

Contrary to popular belief of many there is no perfect solutions. Other 
then my blog (wordpress) I have never used a non custom CMS. However, 
despite the potential annoyances/problems of CMS (and frameworks) there 
is one big advantage normally that I can see...the communities that form 
around them which have people who are (normally) willing to help in some 
fashion.



Kristina Anderson wrote:
>   
>> ummm, from my experience, in the end it is REALLY easy to just write 
>>     
> your
>   
>> own CMS. You can trash 98% of what the bloated CMS packages out there 
>>     
> give
>   
>> your. You just don't need it. It's so overkill.
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
> The ease of doing it from scratch varies depending on the complexity of 
> both the site's front end, and the internal editorial/content approval 
> processes that need to be provided, and of course as usual you have IT 
> managers who are convinced that "doing it with frameworks" will save 
> tons of time and money.
>
> I've also had the experience of debugging and stabilizing some 
> extremely poorly designed written-from-scratch PHP CMSes which lacked 
> basic stuff like proper edit-mode handling and whose UIs were almost 
> impossible for the end-users to understand...
>
> So while rolling your own CMS is certainly a viable option, these 
> frameworks offer a lot of advantages even if they are somewhat bloated 
> with idiotic features.  I'm also in a position where this architecture 
> was "decided upon" by persons with no actual experience doing things 
> this way...which is where the proof-of-concept comes in.  We may do a 
> 180 if required.
>
> Kristina
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/bae912ff/attachment.html>

From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 25 01:08:27 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:07:27 +0759
Subject: [nycphp-talk] jobberBase feedback
Message-ID: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>

Hello NYPHP,

  Greetings, I have a request to build a jobs site and have found
  jobberBase on a search. It is OpenSource and appears to have just
  done a major feature release (last month?). Anyone have any
  experience / advice about this package?

  TIA for any help/ideas.

-- 
Best regards,
 Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com



From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 25 01:18:42 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:18:42 +0800
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE3D231.9040605@nyc.rr.com>
References: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net> <4AE3D231.9040605@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1207700194.20091025131842@vbplusme.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/6eaf73a8/attachment.html>

From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 08:30:00 2009
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 08:30:00 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] jobberBase feedback
In-Reply-To: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>
References: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <5458db3c0910250530v5834caf7le4e85fd3a4e2a3f7@mail.gmail.com>

The long island linux user group uses jobber. You might want to consider
asking on that list. I've not used it extensively, but I was the one that
took the lilug logo and turned it onto the lilug jobs logo.

http://Jobs.lilug.org

I have to ask,  "why make another job board?" though. At the longisland php
user group, we are working on redoing out site (curent: liphp.org new:
liphp.lipcpro.com). One of our design decisions was that we would not host
job postings, just aggregate RSS feeds from other job sites (localized to
longisland with keyword PHP of course). You eventually be able to submit a
new job opening  from our site, but it will go to the LILUG jobber board.


On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 1:08 AM, <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:

> Hello NYPHP,
>
>  Greetings, I have a request to build a jobs site and have found
>  jobberBase on a search. It is OpenSource and appears to have just
>  done a major feature release (last month?). Anyone have any
>  experience / advice about this package?
>
>  TIA for any help/ideas.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/3b1d9f37/attachment.html>

From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 25 08:54:09 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:53:09 +0759
Subject: [nycphp-talk] jobberBase feedback
In-Reply-To: <5458db3c0910250530v5834caf7le4e85fd3a4e2a3f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>
	<5458db3c0910250530v5834caf7le4e85fd3a4e2a3f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1475059443.20091025205309@vbplusme.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/a999de88/attachment.html>

From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 11:41:08 2009
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 11:41:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] jobberBase feedback
In-Reply-To: <1475059443.20091025205309@vbplusme.com>
References: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>
	<5458db3c0910250530v5834caf7le4e85fd3a4e2a3f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1475059443.20091025205309@vbplusme.com>
Message-ID: <5458db3c0910250841l77a33fc5xb3067bf6167a6a2c@mail.gmail.com>

Webmaster,

I didn't realize there was absolutely no way to do security for jobber. I
always assumed that it was turned off on the lilug site because they
preferred that model.

There might not be that great a need for login functionality. Hear me out of
a second. For posting job openings, You can have two copies of the site, one
on the web, and another on the towns intranet. Delete the "add a new job"
pages on the public site and use apache security to password protect the
intranet site. The job seekers will have to submit a resume to get a job,
and you want the job posting to be publicly accessible.

And you can always ask on the jobber forums why there is no security. Its
probably addressed in there FAQ.

Regards,

Justin Dearing

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 8:54 AM, <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:

>  Hello Justin,
>
>
> Sunday, October 25, 2009, 8:30:00 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>  The long island linux user group uses jobber. You might want to consider
> asking on that list. I've not used it extensively, but I was the one that
> took the lilug logo and turned it onto the lilug jobs logo.
>
> http://Jobs.lilug.org
>
> I have to ask,  "why make another job board?" though. At the longisland php
> user group, we are working on redoing out site (curent: liphp.org new:
> liphp.lipcpro.com). One of our design decisions was that we would not host
> job postings, just aggregate RSS feeds from other job sites (localized to
> longisland with keyword PHP of course). You eventually be able to submit a
> new job opening  from our site, but it will go to the LILUG jobber board.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 1:08 AM, <webmaster at vbplusme.com> wrote:
> Hello NYPHP,
>
>  Greetings, I have a request to build a jobs site and have found
>  jobberBase on a search. It is OpenSource and appears to have just
>  done a major feature release (last month?). Anyone have any
>  experience / advice about this package?
>
>  TIA for any help/ideas.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                          mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback. In looking a little closer at jobberBase, I am a
> bit bothered by the fact that it doesn't have any login security for any of
> the participants, poster or seekers. The job board I need to consider is
> suppose to support a good sized municipality so I think they would have
> problems with that missing functionality as well.
>
> *--
>
> Best regards,
>  Webmaster                            mailto:webmaster at vbplusme.com<webmaster at vbplusme.com>
> *
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/05414174/attachment.html>

From webmaster at vbplusme.com  Sun Oct 25 12:57:52 2009
From: webmaster at vbplusme.com (webmaster at vbplusme.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:56:52 +0759
Subject: [nycphp-talk] jobberBase feedback
In-Reply-To: <5458db3c0910250841l77a33fc5xb3067bf6167a6a2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1184896620.20091025130727@vbplusme.com>
	<5458db3c0910250530v5834caf7le4e85fd3a4e2a3f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1475059443.20091025205309@vbplusme.com>
	<5458db3c0910250841l77a33fc5xb3067bf6167a6a2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11210572149.20091026005652@vbplusme.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/f7cfa8e8/attachment.html>

From peterbsemail at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 19:20:38 2009
From: peterbsemail at gmail.com (Peter Becker)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:20:38 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net>
References: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net>
Message-ID: <4AE4DD46.1050503@gmail.com>

OK, so this last conversation begins to touch on the one I've had with 
my development team.  I know how easy it is for programmers (I'm more 
like a lowly PM / IT director) to claim that there's not too much to 
just writing your own, and then watch as revs get burned debugging and 
getting to the point of real usability by anyone but someone that knows 
all the quirks (undocumented functions in some lingo, hehe).  And that's 
about when I have to ask whether the time spent writing a CMS tool 
actually moves our business forward (part of our core competency) or 
not.  And here the answer is usually no.

In summary I've got the following list below to check out (thank you 
again), and Mitch, thank you for your candor as I know how "religious" 
some folks can get over their technology of choice, particularly if it's 
theirs.
 
And one last question to Kristina, why CakePHP and not Zend?  Is it that 
your team already knows Cake or is their some technical preference?

http://www.silverstripe.com/

http://modxcms.com/ 

http://www.Vork.us

http://www.steercms-project.org/



Kristina Anderson wrote:
>   
>> ummm, from my experience, in the end it is REALLY easy to just write 
>>     
> your
>   
>> own CMS. You can trash 98% of what the bloated CMS packages out there 
>>     
> give
>   
>> your. You just don't need it. It's so overkill.
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
> The ease of doing it from scratch varies depending on the complexity of 
> both the site's front end, and the internal editorial/content approval 
> processes that need to be provided, and of course as usual you have IT 
> managers who are convinced that "doing it with frameworks" will save 
> tons of time and money.
>
> I've also had the experience of debugging and stabilizing some 
> extremely poorly designed written-from-scratch PHP CMSes which lacked 
> basic stuff like proper edit-mode handling and whose UIs were almost 
> impossible for the end-users to understand...
>
> So while rolling your own CMS is certainly a viable option, these 
> frameworks offer a lot of advantages even if they are somewhat bloated 
> with idiotic features.  I'm also in a position where this architecture 
> was "decided upon" by persons with no actual experience doing things 
> this way...which is where the proof-of-concept comes in.  We may do a 
> 180 if required.
>
> Kristina
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091025/aa72586d/attachment.html>

From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Oct 26 10:32:31 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE4DD46.1050503@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261030020.6456-100000@bitblit.net>

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, Peter Becker wrote:

> And one last question to Kristina, why CakePHP and not Zend?  Is it that 
> your team already knows Cake or is their some technical preference?

For me, Zend is less framework and more like a library, so its at a lower 
level than many frameworks.


-- 
A



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Oct 26 12:10:57 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:10:57 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
Message-ID: <1256573457.15357@coral.he.net>



> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, Peter Becker wrote:
> 
> > And one last question to Kristina, why CakePHP and not Zend?  Is 
it that 
> > your team already knows Cake or is their some technical preference?
> 
> For me, Zend is less framework and more like a library, so its at a 
lower 
> level than many frameworks.
> 
> 
> -- 
> A
> 
Peter, I asked and the answer I got was that "we already have a lot of 
code from the last guy in Cake".....

i.e., there isn't a really good reason, it just is the way it 
is...well we'll see if the proof-of-concept pans out...

There seem to be concerns that the database-access classes in Cake 
aren't agnostic enough to work with Silverstripe's database, but I 
think there are workarounds that will be effective.  (Silverstripe 
rebuilds its database based on enumerations of fields in the data 
classes and has its own naming conventions.)

Kristina


From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 13:08:20 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:08:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261030020.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <4AE4DD46.1050503@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261030020.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <330532b60910261008n45f726bem556e65b4ea88436f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, Peter Becker wrote:
>
>> And one last question to Kristina, why CakePHP and not Zend? ?Is it that
>> your team already knows Cake or is their some technical preference?
>
> For me, Zend is less framework and more like a library, so its at a lower
> level than many frameworks.

Here's my take, would love your feedback:

http://www.mitchitized.com/nerdy-stuff/php-frameworks-explained/

I rarely mention a reference to blog posts here, hope I'm not
violating any etiquette rules :-)

-- Mitch


From yogesh.agashe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 14:22:27 2009
From: yogesh.agashe at gmail.com (Yogesh Agashe)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:22:27 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
Message-ID: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>

Hello,

This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to everyone 
and thanks for the thorough discussions which help a beginner developer 
like me.

I have a simple question. I want to validate first and last name. I 
assume that these are probably most common fields in any type of 
registration forms on websites.

When I validate these fields, I can't use ctype_alpha since these don't 
allow ' as in O'Reilly or Last Name with white space in it. I have to 
use a regular expression here. That's fine and I use it as well. Another 
method is to find a single ' or space,  trim it and then validate 
remaining alphabet characters. RegEx is slower and even in new 
filter_input, there is no way to validate these field types.

Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be nice 
to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I will 
like to know how people tackle these issue.
Thanks.

Sincerely,
Yogesh






From nycfug_org at dynamicink.com  Mon Oct 26 16:20:20 2009
From: nycfug_org at dynamicink.com (PHProx)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:20:20 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Seeking multilingual people who can read languages
	that use non-English letters for a PHP internationalization project
Message-ID: <002701ca5679$dae62d70$bf0aa8c0@e6300>

Hello,

Can you read a language that does not use Latin-alphabet English letters (eg. Russian, Greek, Indian alphabets like Devanagari, etc.) and would like to contribute half-an-hour of your time to an open-source PHP internationalization project?

Email me and please specify the language(s) and if you can type comfortably in the language. We need for different roles both people who can type and those who can read but are unable to type with reasonable efficiency (less than 15wpm.)

Thank you!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/fb28b8f5/attachment.html>

From lists at zaunere.com  Mon Oct 26 15:30:22 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:30:22 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <027c01ca5672$c2f977f0$48ec67d0$@com>

Hi,

> This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to everyone
> and thanks for the thorough discussions which help a beginner developer
> like me.

Hi Yogesh and welcome.

> I have a simple question. I want to validate first and last name. I
> assume that these are probably most common fields in any type of
> registration forms on websites.
> 
> When I validate these fields, I can't use ctype_alpha since these don't
> allow ' as in O'Reilly or Last Name with white space in it. I have to
> use a regular expression here. That's fine and I use it as well. Another
> method is to find a single ' or space,  trim it and then validate
> remaining alphabet characters. RegEx is slower and even in new
> filter_input, there is no way to validate these field types.

I wouldn't worry too much about the speed of regex (I'd recommend pcre_*
functions).

> Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be nice
> to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I will
> like to know how people tackle these issue.

But note that validating is all relative.  What if you need to support
various charsets?  I typically just check for strings without newlines and
non-printable chars.  For international sites, obviously, there are some
other loops involved.

H




From ramons at gmx.net  Mon Oct 26 15:48:11 2009
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:48:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>

Yogesh Agashe wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to everyone 
> and thanks for the thorough discussions which help a beginner developer 
> like me.

Welcome, was the same with me, except that I never really left beginner stage.


  > Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be nice
> to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I will 
> like to know how people tackle these issue.
> Thanks.
> 

The only thing I would check is that the fields are not empty. The maximum 
length is set via the maxlength parameter in HTML and everything else 
qualifies as  a valid name. I don't think you can reasonably script validation 
to make sure that the first name entered is "Dirk" and not "Dork".

David


From kkrutoi at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:06:25 2009
From: kkrutoi at gmail.com (Konstantin K)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:06:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>

be careful. don't just check if the field is NON empty.  that's not good
enough.

in English, you can reasonably assume the following to be true about names:
- must contain at least 1 letter [A-Za-z]
- may contain ' (apostrephe) and - (dash) and  (space)
- shouldn't be longer than 40 characters.
- should not contain #s, or any other symbol, especially < (so ppl don't
start entering html codes, js, etc)

Konstantin





On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:48 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

> Yogesh Agashe wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to everyone and
>> thanks for the thorough discussions which help a beginner developer like me.
>>
>
> Welcome, was the same with me, except that I never really left beginner
> stage.
>
>
>
>  > Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be nice
>
>> to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I will
>> like to know how people tackle these issue.
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
> The only thing I would check is that the fields are not empty. The maximum
> length is set via the maxlength parameter in HTML and everything else
> qualifies as  a valid name. I don't think you can reasonably script
> validation to make sure that the first name entered is "Dirk" and not
> "Dork".
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/9d04301b/attachment.html>

From yogesh.agashe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:07:37 2009
From: yogesh.agashe at gmail.com (Yogesh Agashe)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:07:37 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <027c01ca5672$c2f977f0$48ec67d0$@com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <027c01ca5672$c2f977f0$48ec67d0$@com>
Message-ID: <4AE60189.4060106@gmail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/fde7e8e5/attachment.html>

From kkrutoi at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:07:30 2009
From: kkrutoi at gmail.com (Konstantin K)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:07:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net> 
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>

oh and also allow for . (periods)....

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:

> be careful. don't just check if the field is NON empty.  that's not good
> enough.
>
> in English, you can reasonably assume the following to be true about names:
> - must contain at least 1 letter [A-Za-z]
> - may contain ' (apostrephe) and - (dash) and  (space)
> - shouldn't be longer than 40 characters.
> - should not contain #s, or any other symbol, especially < (so ppl don't
> start entering html codes, js, etc)
>
> Konstantin
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:48 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Yogesh Agashe wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to everyone
>>> and thanks for the thorough discussions which help a beginner developer like
>>> me.
>>>
>>
>> Welcome, was the same with me, except that I never really left beginner
>> stage.
>>
>>
>>
>>  > Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be
>> nice
>>
>>> to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I will
>>> like to know how people tackle these issue.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>> The only thing I would check is that the fields are not empty. The maximum
>> length is set via the maxlength parameter in HTML and everything else
>> qualifies as  a valid name. I don't think you can reasonably script
>> validation to make sure that the first name entered is "Dirk" and not
>> "Dork".
>>
>> David
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/146a735a/attachment.html>

From yogesh.agashe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:11:56 2009
From: yogesh.agashe at gmail.com (Yogesh Agashe)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:11:56 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4AE6028C.9070901@gmail.com>

Hello David,

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, I am checking that they are not empty. Thanks for the feedback.

Sincerely,
Yogesh

David Krings wrote:
> Yogesh Agashe wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is my first post to this NYPHP mailing list. So hello to 
>> everyone and thanks for the thorough discussions which help a 
>> beginner developer like me.
>
> Welcome, was the same with me, except that I never really left 
> beginner stage.
>
>
>  > Is there any other way to validate first and last names. It will be 
> nice
>> to have have inbuilt function for such commonly used field types. I 
>> will like to know how people tackle these issue.
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> The only thing I would check is that the fields are not empty. The 
> maximum length is set via the maxlength parameter in HTML and 
> everything else qualifies as  a valid name. I don't think you can 
> reasonably script validation to make sure that the first name entered 
> is "Dirk" and not "Dork".
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


From yogesh.agashe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:16:06 2009
From: yogesh.agashe at gmail.com (Yogesh Agashe)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:16:06 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/de3b77aa/attachment.html>

From jcampbell1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:26:32 2009
From: jcampbell1 at gmail.com (John Campbell)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:26:32 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f0676b40910261326q4da57916wbdb3e70969e01a73@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Yogesh Agashe <yogesh.agashe at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. Right, So many cases to handle in there. I will
> also add minimum 2 characters to the list.

May I ask, what is the point of all of this?  Who benefits from you
imposing all sorts of piddly rules about what is in a name?  Do you
benefit?  Why go to the extra effort to make your code only work for
99% of American English names.  If you do nothing, your code will work
for any name, and you will have more free time to do something
worthwhile.

BTW,  I just checked my database, and I have 2 icelandic customers
that don't even have last names on their credit cards.  I am glad I
don't do validation, because if I did, I probably would have lost
those customers.

Regards,
-John Campbell


From lists at zaunere.com  Mon Oct 26 16:27:20 2009
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:27:20 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>
	<4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02a601ca567a$b7fbc5d0$27f35170$@com>

> Thanks for the feedback. Right, So many cases to handle in there. I
> will also add minimum 2 characters to the list.
	
That might not be correct, especially for Asian lastnames/etc... oh, minimum
of 2, but you get my meaning... what if you will want to support a middle
initial? :)

End of the day, I wouldn't try to validate too much.  Just protect your site
more from a security perspective.  Effectively, for all non-text area input,
I don't allow whitespace except for a regular horizontal space.  And for
text-areas, well, it all depends :)

H





From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:29:37 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:29:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910261329s6d171ce6i19ce3af177ab5097@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Yogesh Agashe <yogesh.agashe at gmail.com>wrote:

>  [...]
> Konstantin K wrote:
>
> oh and also allow for . (periods)....
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Konstantin K <kkrutoi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> be careful. don't just check if the field is NON empty.  that's not good
>> enough.
>>
>> in English, you can reasonably assume the following to be true about
>> names:
>> - must contain at least 1 letter [A-Za-z]
>> - may contain ' (apostrephe) and - (dash) and  (space)
>> - shouldn't be longer than 40 characters.
>> - should not contain #s, or any other symbol, especially < (so ppl don't
>> start entering html codes, js, etc)
>>
>
Some time ago I borrowed and stole and cobbled together this regex for a
first name:

/[^a-zA-Z\xC0-\xFF ]/

This is your whitelist approach. You test if the value contains anything
other than this; if it doesn't, it's good. Min and max lengths have to be
checked separately, though if you are really a ninja I think this could be
made part of the regex.

I allow space because there may be a 'Marie Christine' or some such who
really wants the two parts regards as a single first name. The \x stuff
allows a slew of chars found in Western European languages, so you're
somewhat internationalized. If memory serves I think I got that from Daniel
C.

My surname validator is the same except that it permits ' (apostrophe).


-- 
Demand health care for everyone:
http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/f9eca021/attachment.html>

From ajai at bitblit.net  Mon Oct 26 16:29:51 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910261008n45f726bem556e65b4ea88436f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261603290.6456-100000@bitblit.net>

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> Here's my take, would love your feedback:
>
> http://www.mitchitized.com/nerdy-stuff/php-frameworks-explained/

A couple of points:

You say a framework is opinionated (fair comment) but that to me 
implies a stack has specific layers, a naming and directory layout 
convention, etc. Zend doesn't have that so each project is different - 
there is no common frame of reference. Thus I dont call it a framework. 
"Glue" is certainly right, but its really a library of components - how 
you use them, how you structure your app and your own naming conventions 
is how they're often used. If you like gluing things together, that might 
be OK. But it also brings up the issue of long-term maintenance, when you 
have to hand the code over to someone else that has a different idea of 
how things should be structured. While a lot of frameworks have a common 
layout that facilitate easier maintenance by different developers, most 
also allow you to tweak and customize a little, so they are not as rigid 
as seems to be implied.

The other thing is, despite being full stacks, many frameworks can be 
scaled up and there are many options to tweak that. You can switch off 
layers you dont want to use (like maybe you dont want to use an ORM or 
you want to swap in a lighter component). Many frameworks have a lots of 
options for caching functions, templates, etc. You would have to build 
that yourself if you want to glue something together with components.

There are many large sites using frameworks, so your comments about 
scalability and performance might be a bit off. Frameworks require much 
more learning to get the best out of them, this is why picking four 
frameworks and bulding a simple "Hello World" page merely scratches the 
surface and cannot be regarded as a serious testdrive, but these 
unoptmized experiences are sadly often used as benchmarks to pick!



-- 
Aj.



From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:32:09 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:32:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <8f0676b40910261326q4da57916wbdb3e70969e01a73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
	<8f0676b40910261326q4da57916wbdb3e70969e01a73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910261332v90c56c5nd7028aa898955530@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:26 PM, John Campbell <jcampbell1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Yogesh Agashe <yogesh.agashe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Konstantin,
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback. Right, So many cases to handle in there. I will
> > also add minimum 2 characters to the list.
>
> May I ask, what is the point of all of this?  Who benefits from you
> imposing all sorts of piddly rules about what is in a name?  Do you
> benefit?  Why go to the extra effort to make your code only work for
> 99% of American English names.  If you do nothing, your code will work
> for any name, and you will have more free time to do something
> worthwhile.
>


Maybe you just want to protect users from their own mistakes, so they don't
input Hen3ry where they mean Henry.



>
> BTW,  I just checked my database, and I have 2 icelandic customers
> that don't even have last names on their credit cards.  I am glad I
> don't do validation, because if I did, I probably would have lost
> those customers.
>


I guess it depends on the application and the type of data you expect.

-- 
Demand health care for everyone:
http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/4926b776/attachment.html>

From vtbludgeon at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:33:37 2009
From: vtbludgeon at gmail.com (David Mintz)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:33:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <02a601ca567a$b7fbc5d0$27f35170$@com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com> <4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>
	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>
	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com> <02a601ca567a$b7fbc5d0$27f35170$@com>
Message-ID: <721f1cc50910261333h74ad8dfawc758163daad10320@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:

> > Thanks for the feedback. Right, So many cases to handle in there. I
> > will also add minimum 2 characters to the list.
>
> That might not be correct, especially for Asian lastnames/etc... oh,
> minimum
> of 2, but you get my meaning... what if you will want to support a middle
> initial? :)
>
> End of the day, I wouldn't try to validate too much.



But it's nice to let them proof it.


-- 
Demand health care for everyone:
http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/

--
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/e7faac9b/attachment.html>

From yogesh.agashe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 16:53:36 2009
From: yogesh.agashe at gmail.com (Yogesh Agashe)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:53:36 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Valudating common field types
In-Reply-To: <02a601ca567a$b7fbc5d0$27f35170$@com>
References: <4AE5E8E3.7030204@gmail.com>	<4AE5FCFB.40902@gmx.net>	<7173a2fc0910261306w4489c257h2a694d393baf5413@mail.gmail.com>	<7173a2fc0910261307u482a6d53nb97cfc08e1537b4@mail.gmail.com>	<4AE60386.1010806@gmail.com>
	<02a601ca567a$b7fbc5d0$27f35170$@com>
Message-ID: <4AE60C50.3000801@gmail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/5238d489/attachment.html>

From peterbsemail at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 17:07:29 2009
From: peterbsemail at gmail.com (Peter Becker)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:07:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <330532b60910261008n45f726bem556e65b4ea88436f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE4DD46.1050503@gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261030020.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
	<330532b60910261008n45f726bem556e65b4ea88436f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AE60F91.2010808@gmail.com>

Great way to capture it and reflects how I was beginning to think about 
it - thanks.

- peter

Mitch Pirtle wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
>   
>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, Peter Becker wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> And one last question to Kristina, why CakePHP and not Zend?  Is it that
>>> your team already knows Cake or is their some technical preference?
>>>       
>> For me, Zend is less framework and more like a library, so its at a lower
>> level than many frameworks.
>>     
>
> Here's my take, would love your feedback:
>
> http://www.mitchitized.com/nerdy-stuff/php-frameworks-explained/
>
> I rarely mention a reference to blog posts here, hope I'm not
> violating any etiquette rules :-)
>
> -- Mitch
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/c38b2c63/attachment.html>

From mitch.pirtle at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 20:26:33 2009
From: mitch.pirtle at gmail.com (Mitch Pirtle)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:26:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261603290.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
References: <330532b60910261008n45f726bem556e65b4ea88436f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0910261603290.6456-100000@bitblit.net>
Message-ID: <330532b60910261726q7976c0d4j1157e0fe885268cc@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Ajai Khattri <ajai at bitblit.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009, Mitch Pirtle wrote:
>
>> Here's my take, would love your feedback:
>>
>> http://www.mitchitized.com/nerdy-stuff/php-frameworks-explained/
>
> A couple of points:
>
> You say a framework is opinionated (fair comment) but that to me
> implies a stack has specific layers, a naming and directory layout
> convention, etc. Zend doesn't have that so each project is different -
> there is no common frame of reference. Thus I dont call it a framework.
> "Glue" is certainly right, but its really a library of components - how
> you use them, how you structure your app and your own naming conventions
> is how they're often used. If you like gluing things together, that might
> be OK. But it also brings up the issue of long-term maintenance, when you
> have to hand the code over to someone else that has a different idea of
> how things should be structured. While a lot of frameworks have a common
> layout that facilitate easier maintenance by different developers, most
> also allow you to tweak and customize a little, so they are not as rigid
> as seems to be implied.
>
> The other thing is, despite being full stacks, many frameworks can be
> scaled up and there are many options to tweak that. You can switch off
> layers you dont want to use (like maybe you dont want to use an ORM or
> you want to swap in a lighter component). Many frameworks have a lots of
> options for caching functions, templates, etc. You would have to build
> that yourself if you want to glue something together with components.
>
> There are many large sites using frameworks, so your comments about
> scalability and performance might be a bit off. Frameworks require much
> more learning to get the best out of them, this is why picking four
> frameworks and bulding a simple "Hello World" page merely scratches the
> surface and cannot be regarded as a serious testdrive, but these
> unoptmized experiences are sadly often used as benchmarks to pick!

You just made me re-read my own article, as you make it sound I said
things I didn't. And that makes me nervous that other folks would
misunderstand as well.

This article is about the different types of frameworks, and only
cites a few as examples for reference. I have no idea what your
talking about regarding benchmarking frameworks with a typical "Hello
world!" test app. Lastly performance was specifically mentioned as a
challenge with scaffold frameworks, and as a strength with glue
frameworks.

You sure you read the right blog post Ajai?

-- Mitch, checking his website one more time


From edwardpotter at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 21:33:19 2009
From: edwardpotter at gmail.com (Edward Potter)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:33:19 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
In-Reply-To: <4AE3D231.9040605@nyc.rr.com>
References: <1256414627.12115@coral.he.net> <4AE3D231.9040605@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c5949a380910261833q31a091ddp5f3c7b96bda8264f@mail.gmail.com>

at this point I think you can do 98% of what ever content management u need
to do in wordpress. it's really that well designed.

with all those free weekends u would be rewarded with, hack objective-C (i'm
pretty much blown away with it), code iphone apps and move to maui or
something like that.

 :-)


On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Joey Derrico <JoeyD473 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:

>  Contrary to popular belief of many there is no perfect solutions. Other
> then my blog (wordpress) I have never used a non custom CMS. However,
> despite the potential annoyances/problems of CMS (and frameworks) there is
> one big advantage normally that I can see...the communities that form around
> them which have people who are (normally) willing to help in some fashion.
>
>
>
>
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>
>    ummm, from my experience, in the end it is REALLY easy to just write
>
>
>  your
>
>
>  own CMS. You can trash 98% of what the bloated CMS packages out there
>
>
>  give
>
>
>  your. You just don't need it. It's so overkill.
>
>
>
>
>
>  The ease of doing it from scratch varies depending on the complexity of
> both the site's front end, and the internal editorial/content approval
> processes that need to be provided, and of course as usual you have IT
> managers who are convinced that "doing it with frameworks" will save
> tons of time and money.
>
> I've also had the experience of debugging and stabilizing some
> extremely poorly designed written-from-scratch PHP CMSes which lacked
> basic stuff like proper edit-mode handling and whose UIs were almost
> impossible for the end-users to understand...
>
> So while rolling your own CMS is certainly a viable option, these
> frameworks offer a lot of advantages even if they are somewhat bloated
> with idiotic features.  I'm also in a position where this architecture
> was "decided upon" by persons with no actual experience doing things
> this way...which is where the proof-of-concept comes in.  We may do a
> 180 if required.
>
> Kristina
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing Listhttp://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
IM/iChat: ejpusa
Links: http://del.icio.us/ejpusa
Follow me: http://www.twitter.com/ejpusa
Karma: http://www.coderswithconscience.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091026/99e5fc28/attachment.html>

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Oct 26 23:21:20 2009
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:21:20 -0700
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Off the shelp CMS w/o the layout?
Message-ID: <1256613680.10502@coral.he.net>



> 
> at this point I think you can do 98% of what ever content management 
u need
> to do in wordpress. it's really that well designed.
> 
> with all those free weekends u would be rewarded with, hack objective-
C (i'm
> pretty much blown away with it), code iphone apps and move to maui or
> something like that.
> 
>  :-)
> 
> 
Dude,

>From your lips to the programming god's ears...although I prefer Cancun 
to Hawaii! :)

Unfortunately while there are easier answers and harder answers to 
solving problems, as many, many a hack has said...if it was that easy, 
everyone would be doing it.  And I've got way more interesting things 
to do with my free weekends than program. 

PS Report from the trenches says, Silverstripe is indeed an overbloated 
PITA, and if the front-end guy can't figure out Cake, he sure as heck 
won't get far with Zend...

Kristina




From bmartin at mac.com  Wed Oct 28 16:04:52 2009
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:04:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
Message-ID: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>

Hi,
I was wondering what is the most popular, or best soap client I should  
use in my PHP. I know PHP 5 has some built in Soap, but is that used  
more than others, and which is accepted more widely in the industry.

Thanks
Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091028/d64d7c51/attachment.html>

From sequethin at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 16:07:26 2009
From: sequethin at gmail.com (Michael Hernandez)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:07:26 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
References: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3FC703CD-B54C-4494-AEFD-65AFF6C35AA6@gmail.com>


On Oct 28, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Bruce Martin wrote:

> Hi,
> I was wondering what is the most popular, or best soap client I  
> should use in my PHP. I know PHP 5 has some built in Soap, but is  
> that used more than others, and which is accepted more widely in the  
> industry.
>

fwiw, I use the Zend Framework SOAP component and it's quick and easy  
and it works...

--Mike H


From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 17:05:05 2009
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:05:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
References: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5458db3c0910281405l33c52804xd9368bf82a324ca9@mail.gmail.com>

I use the built in soap client for projects where I get to make the
decision.

My company also uses the built in soap client, I'm not sure who made that
decision.

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I was wondering what is the most popular, or best soap client I should use
> in my PHP. I know PHP 5 has some built in Soap, but is that used more than
> others, and which is accepted more widely in the industry.
>
> Thanks
> Bruce Martin
> The Martin Solution
> bruce at martinsolution.com
> http://www.martinsolution.com
> http://externals.martinsolution.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091028/8699405c/attachment.html>

From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com  Wed Oct 28 17:54:54 2009
From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:54:54 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <5458db3c0910281405l33c52804xd9368bf82a324ca9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
	<5458db3c0910281405l33c52804xd9368bf82a324ca9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCF25A4A-9185-47CF-A646-DA3E5A321C31@beaffinitive.com>

+1 for the soap extension as opposed to any library.


From m.suterski at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 18:54:30 2009
From: m.suterski at gmail.com (Marcin Suterski)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:54:30 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <CCF25A4A-9185-47CF-A646-DA3E5A321C31@beaffinitive.com>
References: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
	<5458db3c0910281405l33c52804xd9368bf82a324ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCF25A4A-9185-47CF-A646-DA3E5A321C31@beaffinitive.com>
Message-ID: <253e28c40910281554i65f0730fs18120dfe477fb09@mail.gmail.com>

I don't see anything wrong with PHP soap extension. It requires some
know-how, but is there anything faster and more reliable?

Suter


On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Rob Marscher
<rmarscher at beaffinitive.com> wrote:
> +1 for the soap extension as opposed to any library.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From bmartin at mac.com  Thu Oct 29 13:18:27 2009
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:18:27 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <253e28c40910281554i65f0730fs18120dfe477fb09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DEF140A0-354C-4EDF-B784-46A37A3E4885@mac.com>
	<5458db3c0910281405l33c52804xd9368bf82a324ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCF25A4A-9185-47CF-A646-DA3E5A321C31@beaffinitive.com>
	<253e28c40910281554i65f0730fs18120dfe477fb09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDD1ABDE-F50F-4D4E-A88B-CF0865C01289@mac.com>

Ok so it looks like the built in SOAP extension is the winner, now are  
there any good tutorials or documentation on how to use it? I must  
admit I only quickly glanced at the docs on php.net.

Bruce Martin
The Martin Solution
bruce at martinsolution.com
http://www.martinsolution.com
http://externals.martinsolution.com

On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Marcin Suterski wrote:

> I don't see anything wrong with PHP soap extension. It requires some
> know-how, but is there anything faster and more reliable?
>
> Suter
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Rob Marscher
> <rmarscher at beaffinitive.com> wrote:
>> +1 for the soap extension as opposed to any library.
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091029/5c08e38a/attachment.html>

From danielc at analysisandsolutions.com  Fri Oct 30 09:59:24 2009
From: danielc at analysisandsolutions.com (Daniel Convissor)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:59:24 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] using PHP to import large-ish SQL into mysql
In-Reply-To: <20091021224813.GA28551@panix.com>
References: <4ADBB7D6.8070202@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<8f0676b40910191302i3d2b972cl9d2d02dc3556af29@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FF5BB2C-8D52-4C04-998A-8718FBF8AD0D@mac.com>
	<29059-29551@sneakemail.com>
	<4ADDF7CC.1090106@TwoMiceAndAStrawberry.com>
	<3C22F952-46AB-4058-9DC4-E70A7CF668C6@suzerain.com>
	<20091021001102.GA148@panix.com>
	<DC54ABE1-33B9-45CE-9CAF-D75DD8895C70@suzerain.com>
	<20091021224813.GA28551@panix.com>
Message-ID: <20091030135924.GA14458@panix.com>

Hi Marc:

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:48:13PM -0400, Daniel Convissor wrote:
> 
> By saying the log shows "premature end of script headers," I assume 
> you're talking about Apache's error log, right?  What does PHP's error 
> log show?  See the log_errors and error_log settings in php.ini to learn 
> if it's on and where the log is.

I'm curious what happened.

--Dan

-- 
 T H E   A N A L Y S I S   A N D   S O L U T I O N S   C O M P A N Y
            data intensive web and database programming
                http://www.AnalysisAndSolutions.com/
 4015 7th Ave #4, Brooklyn NY 11232  v: 718-854-0335 f: 718-854-0409


From mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com  Fri Oct 30 18:03:15 2009
From: mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com (Michele Waldman)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:03:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] FormFeed
Message-ID: <20091030220309203.BHMI2908@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com>

I'm using a PhpMailer() class that I or someone downloaded.

 

I'm trying to insert a page break in a fax.  Shouldn't "\f" work?

 

I'm doing $mailerInstance->MsgHTML($faxbody."\f".$msgbody);

 

My client says there's no page break.

 

Input, please?

 

I have a headache and any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Michele

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091030/28e24b36/attachment.html>

From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 22:50:37 2009
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:50:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] FormFeed
In-Reply-To: <20091030220309203.BHMI2908@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com>
References: <20091030220309203.BHMI2908@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5458db3c0910301950l1913b582m39b03d395327c2e5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Michele Waldman <mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com>wrote:

>  I?m using a PhpMailer() class that I or someone downloaded.
>
> Do you mean one of these: http://phpmailer.worxware.com/? If so which one
and which version. If you don't remember opening up the class

>
>
> I?m trying to insert a page break in a fax.  Shouldn?t ?\f? work?
>
> I?m doing $mailerInstance->MsgHTML($faxbody.?\f?.$msgbody);
>
Well the question is what  does the fax gateway support in terms of page
break? What fax gateway are you using. \f  does insert a form feed
character, but how the fax gateway interprets it is the issue..

So the question is what fax gateway are you using, and how do you tell that
fax gateway to do a form feed. If your gateway does not support any explicit
form of form feed, Maybe you can make the fax body an email attachment to
achieve the result you want.

If you really care about the formatting of the fax, and your gateway will
print attachments, consider TCPDF. This class generates PDFs, which
naturally give you more control over the output of the document. This will
alse save paper during test cycles, since you can jsut generate the PDF and
email it to yourself, and be fairly confidant that the fax output will be
the same as what you see in acrobat reader.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091030/5dd65d7d/attachment.html>

From ajai at bitblit.net  Sat Oct 31 11:34:31 2009
From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:34:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Soap Client
In-Reply-To: <EDD1ABDE-F50F-4D4E-A88B-CF0865C01289@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0910311134110.6456-100000@bitblit.net>

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Bruce Martin wrote:

> Ok so it looks like the built in SOAP extension is the winner, now are  
> there any good tutorials or documentation on how to use it? I must  
> admit I only quickly glanced at the docs on php.net.


http://tinyurl.com/yjgtklq



-- 
A



From mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com  Sat Oct 31 14:57:04 2009
From: mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com (Michele Waldman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:57:04 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] FormFeed
In-Reply-To: <5458db3c0910301950l1913b582m39b03d395327c2e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091031185656699.TMYC2908@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com>

Thank you.  I downloaded the fpdf html to pdf conversion class to format the
email.

 

Michele

  _____  

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Justin Dearing
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:51 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] FormFeed

 

 

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Michele Waldman <mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com>
wrote:

I'm using a PhpMailer() class that I or someone downloaded.

Do you mean one of these: http://phpmailer.worxware.com/? If so which one
and which version. If you don't remember opening up the class  

 

I'm trying to insert a page break in a fax.  Shouldn't "\f" work?

I'm doing $mailerInstance->MsgHTML($faxbody."\f".$msgbody);

Well the question is what  does the fax gateway support in terms of page
break? What fax gateway are you using. \f  does insert a form feed
character, but how the fax gateway interprets it is the issue..

 

So the question is what fax gateway are you using, and how do you tell that
fax gateway to do a form feed. If your gateway does not support any explicit
form of form feed, Maybe you can make the fax body an email attachment to
achieve the result you want.

 

If you really care about the formatting of the fax, and your gateway will
print attachments, consider TCPDF. This class generates PDFs, which
naturally give you more control over the output of the document. This will
alse save paper during test cycles, since you can jsut generate the PDF and
email it to yourself, and be fairly confidant that the fax output will be
the same as what you see in acrobat reader.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20091031/9d9c2d8b/attachment.html>